otis24
Member
The guy who traded me his Colt Trooper has a 1916 Mauser .308. Not very familiar with these but for $200 it's worth picking up just to have. Anyone have any information on these? Safe to shoot? What ammo?
1916 Mauser .308
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Most of those old Mausers were converted by the Spanish military to 7.62 X 51mm NATO for possible use in a full mobilization/WWIII conflict. Unscrupulous importers marked them as .308 Winchester. The safety rule used to be to not shoot them with .308 Winchester, since it is loaded to higher pressure than the NATO round. There may also be chamber/freebore differences. Remember, Spain only rechambered them for emergency wartime use with the lower pressure military round. If you have one and want to shoot it, use only the military round or very low end reloads.
Edit: Frank de Haas in his seminal book on bolt action rifles specifically recommends against this conversion.
Edit: Frank de Haas in his seminal book on bolt action rifles specifically recommends against this conversion.
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THE PILGRIM
Member
I raise, 12 foot pole.
.455_Hunter
Member
Even the the 1916's in 7mm develop issues over time. I would STRONGLY discourage use of one in .308, regardless of HP White's "everything is fine" test report.
I am not an expert on these but:
The ones I have seen that have a serial number that starts FR7 were converted. The ones with a serial number FR8 are later large ring 98 Mauser actions originally manufactured in 762x51 in the 1950s.
I have had a couple of the FR8 ones and they seem to be good rifles.
The ones I have seen that have a serial number that starts FR7 were converted. The ones with a serial number FR8 are later large ring 98 Mauser actions originally manufactured in 762x51 in the 1950s.
I have had a couple of the FR8 ones and they seem to be good rifles.
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The FR-7 (Fusil Reformado No. 7) is a modified Model 1916 rifle chambered for a *weaker* version of the 7.62x51 NATO, because the Model 1916 has a smaller and weaker receiver ring. The FR-8 is based on the stronger Mauser 1898 model.
The walls of the 7.62x51 NATO are a little bit thicker than the .308 Winchester. It also has a little longer headspace.
The .308 *could* be loaded to yield higher pressure; therefore I, personally, would not shoot .308 from a rifle chambered for 7.62x51. But; hey, that's just me…I like my eyes.
The walls of the 7.62x51 NATO are a little bit thicker than the .308 Winchester. It also has a little longer headspace.
The .308 *could* be loaded to yield higher pressure; therefore I, personally, would not shoot .308 from a rifle chambered for 7.62x51. But; hey, that's just me…I like my eyes.
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If you really want a Mauser in 7.62x51/.308 then look for a FR-8. Yes they are 3 to four times as expensive as the FR-7 you are looking at but worth the money.
Mine shot Port surplus to 3inches@100yd all day long back when I had the eyes to do so. The rear sight can do a job on your thumb due to the straight bolt handle. Just use the heel of your palm to do all the work and don't wrap your fingers around the knob.
They are very good looking rifles.
Mine shot Port surplus to 3inches@100yd all day long back when I had the eyes to do so. The rear sight can do a job on your thumb due to the straight bolt handle. Just use the heel of your palm to do all the work and don't wrap your fingers around the knob.
They are very good looking rifles.
LVSteve
Member
Please stop with the .308 being a planet killer compared to 7.62 NATO. That fantasy is way past its sell by date. While it is possible to load more powder into a true .308 case, I doubt it is enough to make a substantial difference.
https://smith-wessonforum.com/ammo/...s-308-vs-7-62-nato-wrong.html?highlight=grand
As for the strength of the 1916 action, a number were tested with proof loads up to about 80k PSI without catastrophe failures. I would be more concerned that the Mauser 93 does not handle gas well in the event of a case head failure, rather than worrying about an imminent total disassembly when shooting.
.455_Hunter
Member
The HP White report emerges from the primordial ooze...
Soft bolt and/or receiver metallurgy + 7.62/.308 chambering = excessive headspace = case and/or primer failure = BAD DAY!
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Spain had the same concern about gas routing if the case ruptured. That is why they added a gas port to the converted 1916s. I have no qualified opinion on the safety of these conversions. Except to say that these rifles were intended for emergency use, not long term use. More rounds have probably been fired through these rifles in civilian hands here than in Spanish military hands. If I needed or wanted an inexpensive 308 to shoot I'd buy a Savage Axis, not a converted M1916.
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LVSteve
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It wasn't just for the 1916 conversions. I have a rebuilt 1893 in 7 mm that had the gas slot and 1916 thumb relief added.
A while back there was several of the 1916s in .308 on GB and I thought about buying one until I did a bit of research. There were two Spanish manufacturers that made them. One, I don't remember which, produced a large number to fill the demand and in a hurry the receivers were left soft and never heat treated. One shot is all it takes to set the bolt lugs far enough back in the receiver to make the gun unsafe and beyond repair. Your eyes can't be replaced. Not worth the risk.
In late 1919 I found a 1916 308 converted rifle in a local shop - I won't name it. I didn't bring any cash, but I asked them to hold it for me and I'd come pick it up the next day.
When I went to pick it up, I was told they wouldn't sell it to me for safety reasons. I've done business with them to know that the resident gunsmith goes through, even test fires them before they go on the floor. So, OK whatever. I'd seen the carbines or short rifles, but I hadn't seen a full sized rifle in forever - that's the only reason I wanted it.
Covid comes around and they close up shop to walk in sales and do sales exclusively online. I follow them and eventually I see that same rifle for sale with no disclaimer. How do I know it was the same one? It had a distinctive ding and repair on the butt. Go figure.
When I went to pick it up, I was told they wouldn't sell it to me for safety reasons. I've done business with them to know that the resident gunsmith goes through, even test fires them before they go on the floor. So, OK whatever. I'd seen the carbines or short rifles, but I hadn't seen a full sized rifle in forever - that's the only reason I wanted it.
Covid comes around and they close up shop to walk in sales and do sales exclusively online. I follow them and eventually I see that same rifle for sale with no disclaimer. How do I know it was the same one? It had a distinctive ding and repair on the butt. Go figure.
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Ματθιας;142178078 said:
In late 1919!? Wow...I'm impressed! And I thought I was old!
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These are basically variants of the '93 Mauser, a very old and outdated design and not the strongest action. Spend a little more and get something modern and safer if you're going to do much shooting.
For anyone interested, there is a lot of detailed information on these actions in the Frank de Haas book, "Bolt Action Rifles". The late Frank de Haas was a well-recognized expert on bolt-action and single-shot rifles; certainly not the Internet kind of expert.
For anyone interested, there is a lot of detailed information on these actions in the Frank de Haas book, "Bolt Action Rifles". The late Frank de Haas was a well-recognized expert on bolt-action and single-shot rifles; certainly not the Internet kind of expert.
I'm ageless. Just kidding.
Frank de Haas's negative opinion on the .308 small-ring Mauser conversions was one of the major reasons I made my comment in post #3.
A shop I worked in stopped taking in the 1916 Spanish Mausers that were converted to Nato cal. Both in trade and for repairs.
Liability reasons and from what I saw I'd say for good reason.
Most had excess headspace. Some had their bolt lugs peened back a bit to take up the slack. Bubba jobs for sure, but the bolts certainly should not have been that soft to be able to peen the metal on the lugs in any direction.
I never had the 7.62 bbl off of one to see the locking lugs in the recv'r, but I suspect they had been set back on the xcess HS specimens.
Some you could feel the bolt drop into the set back area when they are really bad. On test firing, the action would be extremely hard to open. That goes for any BA rifle.
The NATO round as well as the 308 Win is just a touch too much for that action and era of mfg.
The orig design of the pre-98 was for a line of cartridges that at that time produced a service pressure in the area of 42K psi.
The OTC Nato rd and the 308 commercial rds sold today can be loaded to 60 & 62K psi.
That's a 50% increase in service pressure over what the orig 7mmx57 was at the time of mfg for these 1916 Mod 93 Mausers.
That's a Proof Load.
Can they take it?,,it seems as so,,they hang together w/o becoming a fragmentation bomb. At least no one admits to any such event that I'm aware of.
The rifle is supposed to be able to take a Proof Load. But not a steady diet of them.
Most all of these Spanish mfgr 1916 Mod 93's were made in the 20's and 30's.
Ask most anyone and they won't own any Spanish made firearm from that or most any other era. Junk,,soft metal.
10cents on a dollar,,they might buy something and even then it's a hard maybe.
But these,,,these were cheap surplus and together w/cheap Nato ammo at the time made happy buyers.
One in good mechanical condition in this cal with proper reloads in the lesser psi range would do fine.
But to push the upper+ limits of the action w/ commercial ammo doesn't seem in the best interest of your face and hands. Even more so if the action and bolt is improperly heat treated..
Even if still in 7x57,,most all of the commercial OTC ammo in that cal sold today is loaded to the low 50K psi level to satify the modern rifles made in the caliber.
That is already over what the orig 1893 Mausers were made for.
These are 100 yr + old service rifles w/ unkn historys and arsenal conversions that may or may not be of the best quality & QC.
Examine carefully and then if shootable, take it easy on them.
Liability reasons and from what I saw I'd say for good reason.
Most had excess headspace. Some had their bolt lugs peened back a bit to take up the slack. Bubba jobs for sure, but the bolts certainly should not have been that soft to be able to peen the metal on the lugs in any direction.
I never had the 7.62 bbl off of one to see the locking lugs in the recv'r, but I suspect they had been set back on the xcess HS specimens.
Some you could feel the bolt drop into the set back area when they are really bad. On test firing, the action would be extremely hard to open. That goes for any BA rifle.
The NATO round as well as the 308 Win is just a touch too much for that action and era of mfg.
The orig design of the pre-98 was for a line of cartridges that at that time produced a service pressure in the area of 42K psi.
The OTC Nato rd and the 308 commercial rds sold today can be loaded to 60 & 62K psi.
That's a 50% increase in service pressure over what the orig 7mmx57 was at the time of mfg for these 1916 Mod 93 Mausers.
That's a Proof Load.
Can they take it?,,it seems as so,,they hang together w/o becoming a fragmentation bomb. At least no one admits to any such event that I'm aware of.
The rifle is supposed to be able to take a Proof Load. But not a steady diet of them.
Most all of these Spanish mfgr 1916 Mod 93's were made in the 20's and 30's.
Ask most anyone and they won't own any Spanish made firearm from that or most any other era. Junk,,soft metal.
10cents on a dollar,,they might buy something and even then it's a hard maybe.
But these,,,these were cheap surplus and together w/cheap Nato ammo at the time made happy buyers.
One in good mechanical condition in this cal with proper reloads in the lesser psi range would do fine.
But to push the upper+ limits of the action w/ commercial ammo doesn't seem in the best interest of your face and hands. Even more so if the action and bolt is improperly heat treated..
Even if still in 7x57,,most all of the commercial OTC ammo in that cal sold today is loaded to the low 50K psi level to satify the modern rifles made in the caliber.
That is already over what the orig 1893 Mausers were made for.
These are 100 yr + old service rifles w/ unkn historys and arsenal conversions that may or may not be of the best quality & QC.
Examine carefully and then if shootable, take it easy on them.
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LVSteve
Member
Ματθιας;142178340 said:
How's that portrait of you in the attic looking?
Gazz
Member
I have an 1895 Mauser in 7x57 that I bought for $18 in 1970. I believe the 1916 is the same action, small ring cock on closing. The one I own has set back lug recesses in the receiver so when it is fired, you have to use a mallet or hunk of wood to open the bolt. I've seen a number of the 1916s for sale for short money but have avoided them for that reason.
