1917 45 Colt Target

22hipower

22hipower

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We've seen a few treasures posted already from last week's Symposium in Tulsa. I can't resist posting this one too and again suggesting that if you've never been to a SWCA Symposium you should; next one is in Concord (Charlotte), NC.

We sometimes see posts about modified S&Ws with questions as to whether the modifications were completed by Bubba and his helpers or by the factory. Rarely are the opinions substantiated by factory documents.

SN 179014 started life as a 1917 Commercial shipped in August of 1927 to Tryon and Company of Philadelphia, PA. By sometime in 1949 it had gotten to Spokane, WA and the owner wanted a target gun in 45 Colt rather than a 1917 in 45acp. The factory accommodated and returned it to him with a new barrel, new 45 Colt cylinder, target sights and magna stocks.

- No US Property Markings
- * on butt indicating service Department work
- 7.49 (July 1949) service department stamp on left side of frame
- post war micrometer rear sight
- patridge front sight
- cylinder measures 1.570 inch and numbered to the gun
- Eagle head S2 stamp in crane area
- 5.5 inch barrel numbered to gun with a diamond by the SN
- does not have post WWII hammer block

SWCA member Linde owned this one for many years and occasionally posted about it. Can't be too many factory built 1917 Targets in 45 Colt. Since S&W did this work in 1949 I wonder if it had any influence on the development of the Model of 1950 Targets that came not too long after this one was built. Can't wait to try it at the range.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

https://flic.kr/p/2pXV9di https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXVBEo https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXVaiz https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXVCeQ https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXNExy https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXUCK4 https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/

https://flic.kr/p/2pXV8C5 https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/
 
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This gun ia a work of Art, a Target conversion by the factory. Doesn't get better than that. However, I notice the absence of the LERK, large mushroom style ejector rod knob. Did this style knob Not fit in with the barrel change? Because in the pictures displayed it's a fine fit between barrel and ejector rod. Can anyone explain this feature please?
 
T44spl said:
This gun ia a work of Art, a Target conversion by the factory. Doesn't get better than that. However, I notice the absence of the LERK, large mushroom style ejector rod knob. Did this style knob Not fit in with the barrel change? Because in the pictures displayed it's a fine fit between barrel and ejector rod. Can anyone explain this feature please?
Click to expand...

I was surprised by the use of the newer ejector rod knob too. I would have thought the factory would still have had the old style barrels already cut and lots of the old mushroom knob . But maybe not, they made up the last of the 1917s between 1946 and 1950 (less than 1000) as Commercial 1917s some with an S SN, some without. I would have thought those would have had the old style knob too but they didn't, at least the one I have (SN S210775 one of the very last of the 992 or whatever the final production number was) doesn't.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Edited to remove LERK from the "mushroom" knob discussion

https://flic.kr/p/2pXV8tj https://www.flickr.com/photos/194934231@N03/
 
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22hipower said:
I was surprised by the use of the newer ejector rod knob too. I would have thought the factory would still have had the old style barrels already cut and lots of the old LERKs. Buy maybe not, they made up the last of the 1917s between 1946 and 1950 (less than 1000) as Commercial 1917s some with an S SN, some without. I would have thought those would have had the old style LERK too but they didn't, at least the one I have (SN S210775 one of the very last of the 992 or whatever the final production number was) doesn't.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
Click to expand...

The barrel knob use began in the late 1920s except on 1917s which used the mushroom knob thru the 30s.

45 Colt barrels and marked just 45 (not 45 Cal like for the ACP, and never Colt by S&W) were so seldom used and not in inventory, only made up as needed. Even though they had the same bore dimensions as ACP until after WWII. So a barrel marked just 45 would be made up of a more recent production barrel to 1949, therefore it would be milled for the barrel extractor rod knob or not milled and therefore for use of the straight extractor rod.

LERK is a confusing term to use and does not apply to the mushroom knob, but rather to the barrel knob but only when used after the war to differentiate it from the new more common straight extractor rod of that period.
 
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Hondo44 said:
Barrels marked just 45 (not 45 Cal like for the ACP, and never Colt by S&W) were so seldom used and not in inventory, only made up as needed. Even though they had the same bore dimensions as ACP until after WWII. So a barrel marked just 45 would be made up of a more recent production barrel to 1949, therefore it would be milled for the barrel extractor rod knob or not milled and therefore for use of the straight extractor rod.

LERK is a confusing term to use and does not apply to the mushroom knob, but rather to the barrel knob only when used after the war to differentiate it from the new more common straight extractor rod of that period.
Click to expand...

That all makes sense although I thought the 992 or however many Commercial guns made up after WWII were made from left over components. Are you saying that S&W made new barrels for those? Looking at S210775 I suppose that indeed was the case as it apparently has one of the new barrels.

Thanks for the clarification on LERK versus "mushroom" knob.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
 
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Hondo44 said:
45 Colt barrels and marked just 45 (not 45 Cal like for the ACP, and never Colt by S&W) were so seldom used and not in inventory, only made up as needed. Even though they had the same bore dimensions as ACP until after WWII. So a barrel marked just 45 would be made up of a more recent production barrel to 1949, therefore it would be milled for the barrel extractor rod knob or not milled and therefore for use of the straight extractor rod.
Click to expand...
ALL 1917 barrels are marked just like this one- S. & W. DA 45
The barrels for the last run of 1917s after WW II must have had recently made barrels because they were not cut for the mushroom knob.
So, what parts were they trying to use up? My best guess is that they had about a thousand 45 cylinders they wanted to turn into money. ;)
 
22hipower said:
That all makes sense although I thought the 992 or however many Commercial guns made up after WWII were made from left over components. Are you saying that S&W made new barrels for those? Looking at S210775 I suppose that indeed was the case as it apparently has one of the new barrels.

Thanks for the clarification on LERK versus "mushroom" knob.

Jeff
SWCA #1457
Click to expand...

I agree, I don't think they were new barrels, supposedly old inventory. And those I've seen had the barrel style extractor rod. Perhaps for the 45 Colt of this thread they used an unfinished surplus barrel that was not stamped 45 Cal. yet or removed the mark and re-roll marked it S&W .45.
 
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True but that's where the confusion begins. Large compared to what? The mushroom knob is the largest.

LERK is a confusing term to use because it does not mean the mushroom knob, but rather refers to the barrel knob occasionally still seen after the war and the term was only used after the war to differentiate it from the new more common straight extractor rod of that period. Because the barrel knob was large compared to the straight rod with knurled tip that was introduced after WWII (except for 2" barreled guns from before the war).
 
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Hondo44 said:
True but that's where the confusion begins. Large compared to what? The mushroom knob is the largest.

LERK is a confusing term to use because it does not mean the mushroom knob, but rather refers to the barrel knob occasionally still seen after the war and the term was only used after the war to differentiate it from the new more common straight extractor rod of that period. Because the barrel knob was large compared to the straight rod with knurled tip that was introduced after WWII (except for 2" barreled guns from before the war).
Click to expand...

And the other confusion is did they actually intend to do the extra machining on the post war barrels to accommodate the LERK at the outset---or did that come along after they found some leftover LERK rods someone who should have known better decided should be used up?

Ralph Tremaine
 
rct269 said:
And the other confusion is did they actually intend to do the extra machining on the post war barrels to accommodate the LERK at the outset---or did that come along after they found some leftover LERK rods someone who should have known better decided should be used up?

Ralph Tremaine
Click to expand...

The barrel knob was introduced in a 1/22/27 change order to replace the 'mushroom' extractor knob, with the ‘barrel’ style (with single step milling cut under barrel), on all HE non-shrouded barrel models. (Except the 1917s where barrel knobs came much later because so many 1917 barrels were in inventory with the two step milled notch for the mushroom knob).

I think they just used 1917 barrels from inventory that were eventually cut with the one step notch for the barrel knob before the war. So I doubt that they made new barrels after the war that had no notch, and cut the notch just to use up barrel knob extractors. Just my humble opinion.
 
Hondo44 said:
The barrel knob was introduced in a 1/22/27 change order to replace the 'mushroom' extractor knob, with the ‘barrel’ style (with single step milling cut under barrel), on all HE non-shrouded barrel models. (Except the 1917s where barrel knobs came much later because so many 1917 barrels were in inventory with the two step milled notch for the mushroom knob).

I think they just used 1917 barrels from inventory that were eventually cut with the one step notch for the barrel knob before the war. So I doubt that they made new barrels after the war that had no notch, and cut the notch just to use up barrel knob extractors. Just my humble opinion.
Click to expand...
You're not listening-
ALL 1917s had mushroom knobs EXCEPT for the 990 something made after WW II. It is the ONLY variant with the barrel knob. I have never seen a Pre War 1917 with a barrel knob, and I have seen 1917s shipped in 39 and 40.
 
hkcavalier said:
What a fantastic piece!

I believe Parkwater, WA would have been a pretty rural/agricultural area east of downtown Spokane, WA back in 1947. My old man would have been attending middle school about 2 miles northwest of there at the time. It's now known as Orchard Park.
Click to expand...

Parkwater is located in the railroad area around Trent and Fancher. It was primarily one of the larger railroad switching areas. It still carries the Parkwater designation for railroad purposes, it is probably encompassed in the greater Spokane Valley location today. If you're wondering the Valley separated from the city years ago, they got away with contracting quite a large portion of police work out to the Sheriff's department, they have their own Fire districts.
 
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