1917 British .455

[hanover67]

I was in my regional LGS yesterday and a consignment gun spoke to me. Its a 1917, British proofed .455 with modifications that include a Micro ramp front sight and Micro adjustable rear sight and Flitz or Fits plastic target grips. It has proof marks stamped all over it, barrel, cylinder including one that appears to say "xxxxxxmade" which is hard to read even with a magnifying glass.

Its on layaway now and far enough away to keep me from visiting it for a while.

I'd love some info/experience with these British proofed guns, and I need reloading data. There is nothing about this caliber in the Lyman Cast Bullet handbook.

 

[jmace57]

Hanover - something is (I think) wrong with your description. I think it likely that it is a 2nd Model Hand Ejector in .455. Eager to see pictures! It probably says "Not English Make"

 

[Muley Gil]

Is it still a .455? Many of these were rechambered to .45 Colt or to .45 ACP/.45 Auto Rim.

The stamping probably reads, "NOT ENGLISH MAKE"

 

[Hondo44]

If it's not a Triple Lock and has no extractor rod shroud under the barrel, it's a "2nd Model 455 Hand Ejector" as jmace posted, made under contract for the British for WW I.

As Muley Gil posted, confirm that it's not converted to an American cartridge, although that can be a plus! I'd be surprised if it wasn't with all the other modifications.

The grips are made by Fitz. Very common back in the day.

What are they asking for it?

 

[Jack Flash]

It sounds like you're pretty sure it's still in its original chambering. If so, it will fire .455 Webley Marks I and II. Older Lyman Reloading Manuals (like from the early to mid 1960s) have data. Also available in Pet Loads by Ken Waters, if you can find a copy.

There are lots of threads with information about these revolvers (Hand Ejectors I & II) that were sold to England in WWI. Just search for "British" or something like that. Here's a link to one such thread.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...grandfathers-triple-lock.html?highlight=proof

 

[H Richard]

Does it look likt this?




This one dates to 1915, and was converted to 38 Special, note the lower front sight.

 

[hanover67]

I think you all are correct, it appears to be a 2nd model HE as there is no extractor tip shroud. Of course photos will help as will the serial number. I didn't have a camera with me when I put down the deposit. I immediately liked the gun because it had a Micro adjustable rear target sight. Every revolver or pistol I've ever shot has a POI to the left because I have small hands and can't get straight behind the gun so it recoils left.

I live in the East Bay (Northern California) and the gun shop is in San Carlos on the other side of the bay, 30+ miles and horrible traffic away.

Many thanks for the info/advice so far.

 

[hanover67]

I have the serial number for the HE. It is 66573. This is from the receipt from the gun shop rather than my own observation. Can anyone give me a sense of when the gun was made?

 

[Hondo44]

They didn't ship in numerical order so you'd have to get a letter to know for sure. However the 2nd Models all shipped in 1915 thru 1917 when the contract ended.

You'll be able to pick it up now. Pls don't forget some photos when you get it. And confirm it hasn't been converted from 455.

 

[DWalt]

Based upon some SNs for Mk II .455s I have listed, my guess is that it may have shipped in the summer of 1916.

I mentioned this in a recent posting, but last week a local gun shop had what I would estimate to be a 90% MkII .455, unconverted, (SN 500xx), with a $1700 price tag on it. I think that price is somewhat high, but I'll leave it to others to comment on that.

 

[hanover67]

I finally got to pick up the 2nd model HE .455 today after a 3-m0nth layaway and the California 10-day waiting period. I was able to talk to the former owner who had consigned the gun and he said he had not fired it much. but that he had fired both .45 Cold and .455 cartridges in it. The gun shop owner had some .45 Colt dummy rounds so we loaded six of them and the cylinder closed easily. The back of the cylinder chambers look like it has been relieved so the Colt cases will fit. I'm happy with that re-chambering because I can reload for it more easily.

The barrel/cylinder gap is .006" and the cylinder throats measure .459. I haven't slugged the barrel yet.

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[DWalt]

There are at least three methods which were used to convert the .455s to .45 Colt. It seems from your description, the best method was used, namely lengthening the chambers adequately to accept the .45 Colt case, and recessing the chambers to accept the slightly thicker rim of the .45 Colt, thereby preserving the correct headspace. One advantage to this approach is that .455 ammunition can still be used. Check to see if the serial number on the rear face of the cylinder remains visible. If so, it confirms my expectation.

I will throw out a few .455 loads from an older (1950s) Lyman reloading handbook:

1. 193 grain Lead (flat base): 3.8 Bullseye, 770 ft/sec; 6.5 Unique, 800 ft/sec
2. 210 grain Lead (flat base): 3.5 Bullseye, 700 ft/sec; 6.2 Unique 750 ft/sec
3. 225 grain Lead (hollow base): 3.2 Bullseye, 675 ft/sec; 6.0 Unique, 725 ft/sec
4. 290 grain Lead (hollow base): 3.0 Bullseye, 625 ft/sec; 5.0 Unique, 700 ft/sec

One caution if you make up any .45 Colt loads. Use only lead bullets and load at the bottom end of the muzzle velocity range. I'd suggest my pet light .45 Colt load of 6.5 grains of Bullseye and a 200 grain lead bullet.

 

[hanover67]

DWalt. thanks for your note. The matching serial number is visible on the rear surface of the cylinder. It looks like this gun was properly converted and set up for target shooting. I don't have any .45 Colt dies, brass or bullets yet, as I wasn't sure until today what the gun was chambered for. So, I'll read up on light .45 loads and start accumulating reloading gear.

One immediate need is for some grips to replace the plastic Fitz thumbrest target grips on the gun now, which look and feel awful. I like the Herrett Roper grips, but for now I'll look around some more. Is the 2nd model HE frame the same as the "N" frame.

 

[Frank46]

The December issue of Handloader has an article by Terry Wieland " the 455 webly labyrinth. has loading data on the 455 cartridge. He discusses MKII loads for a classic revolver. They do use the webly revolver but does have data for handloading. Maybe be of interest to you. Frank

 

[Plutonius]

Hopefully you didn`t pay too much for it because of the sight mutilations.

I have one that was converted to shoot 45LC by counter boring/reaming the cylinder. I however shoot the original .455 ammunition. My load is 4gr HP-38 under a 262gr RN hollow base case bullet and it feels very similar to factory loadings. If you plan on shooting 45LC I recommend trailboss since its easy to load moderate charges that don`t push these old girls too hard. Although the conversion hurts the collectors value a bit, it sure makes it nice to be able to shoot multiple types of calibers. The 262gr bullet shoots at point of aim so a lighter 45LC bullet will change that a bit.

 

[DWalt]

"Is the 2nd model HE frame the same as the "N" frame."

Yes, but the grip frames of the earlier (pre-WWII) N frame revolvers are slightly different from more recent ones and grips are not interchangeable.

BTW - I use .45 ACP dies for reloading .45 Colt, but resize only about half of the case, in effect just neck sizing.

 

[MajorD]

If the gun has been rechambered to 45 Colt the 455's likely would not fire ( misfire) as the rim thickness on Colt is much thicker than the 455. It looks like someone went to a lot of trouble to mod that gun ( done nicely) so it will probably shoot well. I have seen some modded old smiths that look horrible. This once looks nice- we need a range report!

 

[steelslaver]

Depends on how it was modified. If it was modified by reaming deeper and giving it a slight recess for the slightly thicker 45 colt rims, it will still chamber and fire 455 because although they aree thinner they are also larger diameter than 45 colts so the extra width of the 455 will still allow them to head space. That is how my first model 455 (TL) was done.

 

[DWalt]

If the gun has been rechambered to 45 Colt the 455's likely would not fire ( misfire) as the rim thickness on Colt is much thicker than the 455.

Not so. The benefit of this type of conversion is that both the .45 Colt and the .455 cartridges will headspace properly. The .455 case has a larger diameter and thinner rim than the .45 Colt. Therefore, the .455 rim contacts the chamber face beyond the .45 Colt rim recess.

 

[spad124]

Coincidentally I was at a LGS yesterday after work and saw almost a twin to yours. It caught my eye because the tag said S&W 1917 .455 Webley. I knew that wasn't right. Other than it clearly was an N frame, it was nothing like my 1917. The barrel was 6 or 6.5 inches, not 5 inches and it had been fitted with target sights almost identical to yours. The finish was much more worn. I thought it may have been a rebarrelled and modified 1917, but the .455 caliber threw me. As a finish worn modified 1917, including rechambering, I didn't think it was worth anything close to the $800 tag price so I moved on.