1917 British .455

[Jack Flash]

I guess you can't blame a guy for entering a low-ball bid and hoping he'll get the item. But it could be that infuriated the seller so much that he wouldn't respond.


Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

 

[DWalt]

The last .455 2nd Model I saw about two months ago was about 90% and had not been modified. It had an $1800 price tag on it. It may be worth that to some, but not to me. I might be interested at $1000, but I wouldn't go out of my way to get it at even that price as I am more interested in a gun I can shoot (not too easy for anything chambered in .455) than one I can't. On the other hand, I would be more likely to part with $1000 for that same gun properly modified to take both .455 and .45 Colt.

 

[hanover67]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I've learned a lot.

I was initially attracted to the .455 because it had adjustable target sights. As plus points it was a Smith & Wesson and a big-bore, oddball caliber, all desirable aspects to me. I wasn't sure what it was chambered for, but have since discovered that it is .45 Colt, another bonus. The sights look professionally done, although they look a little Rugerish. The finish is a little worn, which adds character, and I really like the British proofmarks, including "not English made." On the down side, the grips are big, ugly, plastic Fitz thumbrest target types, but they can be replaced.

I'm not concerned with "collector value." I buy guns to shoot, reload for, and enjoy. I don't have a single safe queen. I buy guns I can afford, not for investment purposes.

I can certainly appreciate folks who have other interests than mine. And, I think my best S&W find so far is this forum.

 

[glowe]

I guess you can't blame a guy for entering a low-ball bid and hoping he'll get the item. But it could be that infuriated the seller so much that he wouldn't respond.

Wouldn't be the first time something like that happened.

Well, the auction companies placed a low and high estimate and I set my maximum bid above the low estimate, but my bid entered at half my max bid and without anyone else bidding, the number did not go higher. Problem is that I offered my max bid to the auction house after the item was passed and they ignored it.

I am not so irritated that I did not get either item, but rather the fact that they ignored 2 emails without even a reply.

 

[Texas Star]

Gun shops often confuse the .455 Hand Ejector 2nd Model and the M1917 (Model of 1917) US Service Revolver. They do look a lot alike. As you correctly noted, the .455 HE2 has a 6.5" barrel. Unless its been modified, of course.


These are great old guns and the prices have been going up a lot. I saw a nearly pristine, all original .455 HE2 at Cabela's a few years ago, but I choked on the $800 price tag. Sounds like that would be a bargain now.

You'll love knowing that I paid $31.58 for one in NRA VG-Plus to Excellent shape in Denver in 1965 or '66.


Couldn't ever find .455 ammo, so I sold it a few years later for about what I'd paid. No way to know they'd get to be so expensive.


I guess those converted to .45 Colt will safely fire the Cowboy loads? Those ought to be about as potent as original .455 Colt ammo, made on the MK I length case. Not that I'd hunt anything much bigger than a jackrabbit with those loads. Reloads with Keith bullets or a replica of the Manstopper bullets would make it a wicked stopper on men at close ranges. Apparently the MK III HP Manstopper bullet did expand, even at those low velocities. The MK IV .455 was a solid wadcutter. A modern handload with that in a .45 Colt case at about 800 FPS should account pretty well for a burglar. Old guns like this may not take that much pressure, but a modern .45 Colt will, especially a Ruger. Even in original RN form, the .45 Colt bullet has been a good killer.

 

[DWalt]

At that time, the .455 cylinders were not heat treated, so it would be a prudent idea to use only Cowboy or mild .45 Colt lead bullet reloads. To take it a step further on the side of caution, I use only 200 grain flat nose lead bullets in my older .45 Colt revolvers.

 

[kip595]

I picked up a nice shooter 2nd Model properly converted to .45 Colt about 3 years ago, and with Cowboy loads it has been a pleasant tack driver on the occasions I take it out. It has proofs all over it, the few I've been able to identify indicating travels to Canada, England, and possibly Turkey. Traded a newer but well-used Walther and a $20 bill for it, so I'm pretty happy with that deal.

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks for all the comments so far. I've learned a lot.

I was initially attracted to the .455 because it had adjustable target sights. As plus points it was a Smith & Wesson and a big-bore, oddball caliber, all desirable aspects to me. I wasn't sure what it was chambered for, but have since discovered that it is .45 Colt, another bonus. The sights look professionally done, although they look a little Rugerish. The finish is a little worn, which adds character, and I really like the British proofmarks, including "not English made."

It sounds like you found a great shooter that you can have a lot of fun with!

It's actually stamped: "NOT ENGLISH MAKE".

NOTE: Observing serial #s AND OTHER MARKINGS for accuracy or even existence, especially on penciled stocks, requires magnification, bright light, and an attitude that it is there!

You may find this helpful for all your Serial # locations:
To confirm all parts are original, check for your 6 matching serial # locations for fixed sight pre war Hand Ejectors and all post war Hand Ejectors thru ~1956.


1. Gun butt - or forestrap on I frames/single shots with grips that cover the butt

2. Barrel - bottom of barrel or in extractor shroud

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

5. Cylinder - rear face

6. Right stock only - on back; stamped, scratched or penciled depending on vintage and stock material. (except most target grips because individual fitting not required.)

And Assembly (factory work) #s:
These multi-digit numbers of 3 to 5 digits, are on the yoke at the hinge, in the 'yoke cut' on frame opposite the yoke near the hinge, and inside of the sideplate, for the pre war and early post war period.

You know they are assembly (factory work) #s because of those 3 locations that always match on guns that are original, and that's the only usefulness for them after guns leave the factory: still used to this day, long after serial number locations decreased.

 

[hanover67]

Jim:
You really know how to push my buttons - I found serial numbers 1 through 5, including the ones on the yoke and the back of the extractor star. #6 doesn't apply because I don't have original grips.

I also found 2 od the 3 assembly #s in the yoke cut and on the yoke. I haven't removed the sideplate to look for the 3rd number.

Why am I doing this?

 

[k22fan]

[...] Why am I doing this?

It is an excuse to have fun admiring your newly acquired S&W!

When I bought my S&W 1917 .45 ACP in 1975 it had the same Micro front sight as your .45 combined with a J frame adjustable. Your Micro rear is more precisely adjustable and no doubt was a more expensive up grade. Sporterizing inexpensive military guns was still a popular way to get a hunting rifle or target revolver less expensively than buying a fairly new used one so most people would not have called your Micro sights "sight mutilations" back then. I would have preferred Micros but later on the trimness of the J frame sight was an advantage for concealed carry.

You will probably find accuracy is better with the largest diameter .45 pistol bullets that you can buy or buy molds for. It will be a fun reloading project.

 

[Hondo44]

It is an excuse to have fun admiring your newly acquired S&W!

Exactly, and confirming you have a righteous gun with no mismatched parts.

If you can find a 45 mold for a hollow base bullet, like the original 455 bullets, you'll have the best fit for the bore. The hollow base flares out under pressure and fills the rifling.

 

[hanover67]

Does anyone have a mold number for a Lyman or Ideal hollow-base .45 mold?

 

[Hondo44]

Does anyone have a mold number for a Lyman or Ideal hollow-base .45 mold?

Yes, # 45468, 175 grain bullet. A good not too heavy bullet to keep pressures down.

 

[glowe]

For anyone who reloads or would like to reload the 455 cartridge, I would get a copy of the December 2016 Handloader magazine. There is a great piece on shooting 455 Mark II ammunition. Good information on reloading.

Since the original bullet was hollow-based, it is almost impossible to find a 265 grain Minie bullet. Lee makes a 298 grain bullet (90469), but casting this type of bullet can be a slow process. I have read much on replicating the original 455 loadings, but without the hollow-base bullet options, everything else is a less than perfect loading. You either have to go too heavy on the bullet, or use a solid base option. I have loaded lots of 455s and have not yet been able to duplicate the accuracy of the Ficcohi 455 Webley factory ammo.

 

[Jack Flash]

You may want to try the Hornady .454" 255 grain "cowboy" bullet:
Hornady Bullets 45 Cal (454 Diameter) 255 Grain Lead Flat Nose Box of

 

[Plutonius]

There is a seller on GB that sells 262gr hollow base cast bullets that work well for me. They are virtually identical to the original bullet.

Here is my reloads. I use Fiocchi Brass and the 262gr hollow base cast bullets. 4gr of HP-38 give me about 580 +/- 20 FPS. Those FPS numbers are out of my 2nd Model Hand Ejector with a 6" barrel.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

At that time, the .455 cylinders were not heat treated, so it would be a prudent idea to use only Cowboy or mild .45 Colt lead bullet reloads. To take it a step further on the side of caution, I use only 200 grain flat nose lead bullets in my older .45 Colt revolvers.

You won't hurt it with warm loads. I been shooting the old HE's for years with the same loads Elmer Keith loaded them with and I have not hurt one yet . They were not built for mild loads so what makes you think that's what you need to use in them now??

Eddie

 

[Sugar River]

There is a seller on GB that sells 262gr hollow base cast bullets that work well for me. They are virtually identical to the original bullet.

Here is my reloads. I use Fiocchi Brass and the 262gr hollow base cast bullets. 4gr of HP-38 give me about 580 +/- 20 FPS. Those FPS numbers are out of my 2nd Model Hand Ejector with a 6" barrel.

Couldn't find anyone selling these bullets on GB. Do you have his user name?

 

[glowe]

Nobody there selling 455 bullets or anywhere that I can find with 455 HB bullets for sale. I think the only way to get the job done now is to get a 455 HB mold made by RCBS, but Midway USA is out of stock so I have one on order from Buffalo Arms, but it has not arrived yet.

 

[Plutonius]

Couldn't find anyone selling these bullets on GB. Do you have his user name?

His name is Bill Benny. I purchased over 500 bullets from him. His e-mail is: [email protected]

 

[hanover67]

I found a 45468 Lyman mold, which casts .455 182gr hollow-base bullets with my range scrap alloy. I don't have a .45 sizing/lube die. The bullets are .455 as cast, and I tumble lubed them in Lee lube. I've decided on a starting powder charge of 4.5gr of 700X with this bullet in Starline .45 Colt cases.

I had an old pair of Herrett k-frame grips that I modified to fit the.455 HE. They don't fit exactly but they're good enough to shoot with. Now all I have to do is get to a distant range. Mine closed a year ago.

 

[hanover67]

A couple of images of the gun with grips

 

[lebomm]

Does anyone have a mold number for a Lyman or Ideal hollow-base .45 mold?

I have an old, framed Ideal mould chart on which the only .45 HB handgun bullet is #45468. It's a 2-grooved RNFPHB of only 170grains, presumably in No.2 alloy. Also probably long obsolete. Please let us know if you find something else.

Looks like a lot happened in the time I took to consult my chart and post a reply. Good luck and good shooting with your 182s. We're all waiting on your range report

Larry

 

[deadin]

Here you go........ .455" Webley Bullets|Webley Cast Bullets

Here's the Mold (RCBS)... I have 3 .455's and have been trying to decide whether or not to drop the $125 for the mold.
RCBS 1-Cavity Bullet Mold 45-265-RN-HB 455 Webley (455 Diameter) 265

 

[CptCurl]

About 5 years ago I started a thread about loading the .455 Webley for my Second Model. http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/220525-loading-455-mk-ii.html

Everyone was happy at that time because Hornady had a current supply of .455 brass and Graf & Sons had a current supply of special order Hornady swaged .455 bullets exactly to specs. I'm sad to say the Hornady brass has dried up, and the Hornady bullets seem to be gone also.

That RCBS mould looks like the way to go in the absence of ready-made bullets. The custom moulded bullets on Buffalo's website are just right for the Webley and will suit the man of leisure. No casting required! But they certainly come at a price.

Hornady still offers the 255 grain cowboy swaged bullet (.454" diameter). That probably is the best ready-made and inexpensive offering now.

Doesn't look like the Fiocchi ammo is available now. Does anybody know where any is in stock?

Best of luck!

 

[hanover67]

I don't know about Fiocchi ammo, but if I were going to try another case in my converted .455, I might look at .45 Auto Rim, assuming that the case rime will fit as well as .45 Colt. But, I also assume that would cause the same kind of cyminder ring problem shooting .38's in a .357 Magnum or .44 Specials in a .44 Magnum would create. For the time being I'm sticking with .45 Colt.

 

[Muley Gil]

The rim on .45 Auto Rim is much too thick if your .455 has been converted to .45 Colt.

 

[glowe]

. . . Here's the Mold (RCBS)... I have 3 .455's and have been trying to decide whether or not to drop the $125 for the mold . . .

Glad this thread came to light again. I did purchase the mold and dropped a line about it in the Reloading section for any who might be interested.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/506300-455-bullet-mold-works-great.html

 

[bmcgilvray]

I shoot a Webley Mark IV revolver. I laid in a quantity of the Fiocchi .455 ammunition some years ago, as much for obtaining the cases as for shooting purposes. I was very disappointed with the quality of the brass cases. They are thin and brittle. Thee to five cracked upon initially firing the factory loads and handloading durability is dismal.

I've read of good things about Fiocchi brass and have experienced it myself, with other cartridges in their line. This .455 stuff is dreadful though.

A shooting friend in the UK once supplied me with the Mountain & Sowden cases and I have quantities of them. This is pretty well an "everlasting" case. I've had no issues with repeated loadings with these cases.

Both Mountain & Sowden's cartridge case production and his handgun shooting career were shut down in the 1997 UK handgun ban.

I'm still vexed about both!

 

[glowe]

. . . I laid in a quantity of the Fiocchi .455 ammunition some years ago, as much for obtaining the cases as for shooting purposes. I was very disappointed with the quality of the brass cases. They are thin and brittle. Thee to five cracked upon initially firing the factory loads and handloading durability is dismal . . .

I have reloaded Fiocchi brass multiple times and they works flawlessly in my best condition 455 but splits a few in another gun. I measured the chambers and found my best example to be .476" and the chambers measure .485" in the one that splits brass.

Quite often splitting cases is due to someone trying to smooth out the chambers and enlarging them in the process. Check your chamber dimensions and see what you get??