1917.....Caution, Really Rough!

[dnonac]

I've wanted one of these for along time and just traded for this one......I think I came out OK considering what I got rid of. The finish is gone but the action feels great and bore/cylinder are shiny. Obviously, this gun has been through the ringer....but I wanted a fun shooter. No worries about scratching this pristine model!

*******Just added, this .45 HE Model of 1917 shipped in June 1937***************

I know very little about these guns but found this Brazilian at a gun show and I figure this is the place to go for comments.

From what I have read, some of these guns were assembled from old parts.....but I suspect there is way more going on here (other than late model after market grips).

***Gun has Brazilian stamp one one side and S&W on the reverse.
***Barrel is marked "United States Property" but the barrel numbers different from the frame.
***Cylinder numbers different from the frame.
***Frame does not have any U.S. markings and Serial number on butt is 194120.
***There appears to be a worn stamp just below "Made in the U.S.A." that starts with either "TA Co???" or "IA Co???..". Anybody seen that before?
***Would 1938-1944 be a fair estimate of when it was shipped?

One more thought. I have several .45 full moon clips but I understand most folks use half moon clips for these. Is there a reason? Anybody try the full moons?

Here are a few pics. Comments welcome! I'm old but can still learn if I pay close attention.
Craig...

 

[Camster]

I imagine IA co.,could be Interarms? Can't comment on the marriage of parts,but looks like it has some nice grips on it.

 

[1-1917]

Quite a collection of parts. My Brazilian doesn't have a matched barrel but the barrel that's on it was at least from another Brazilian. Should be fun to shoot..

 

[OFT II]

I wouldn't be ashamed of owning that revolver. It looks like it will make a fine field gun to me.

 

[Elroy]

I wouldn't be ashamed of owning that revolver. It looks like it will make a fine field gun to me.

Exactly. They made it with interchangeable parts for a reason. I'd stick my chest out and thank Uncle Sam while taking care of business!

 

[JSR III]

Most likely rebuilt either there or back here when returned to the US. I would think that it was probably in a batch of other Brazilian models and disassembled and reassembled with no concern for serial numbers.

That is one M1917 that you can enjoy shooting and not fear getting a ding on it. Enjoy.

 

[lebomm]

Definitely a "parts gun" - the barrel is U.S. M1917, the grips are late S&W "Classic" service-style, and the cylinder from another M37, only a few serial numbers off. I'm with the others; most excellent field revolver!
As to half moon/full moon, the half-moon clips are what were originally issued, supplied by S&W, to use the rimless cases in a revolver. The full-moon are a later development and function much as a speedloader, just kind of a PITA to load/unload. About the only advantage is that the fullmoons load a full six at one stroke. I prefer to use Auto Rim myself.

Larry

 

[Jack Flash]

***Frame does not have any U.S. markings and Serial number on butt is 194120.
***There appears to be a worn stamp just below "Made in the U.S.A." that starts with either "TA Co???" or "IA Co???..". Anybody seen that before?
***Would 1938-1944 be a fair estimate of when it was shipped?

One more thought. I have several .45 full moon clips but I understand most folks use half moon clips for these. Is there a reason? Anybody try the full moons?

The serial number is the one on the butt frame. My guess is the mismatched parts were put on in Brazil from spares and / or parts they bought subsequently, but could have been put on when it returned here. Sometimes you even see one with a barrel made in Brazil ("Imbel" marked(?) IIRC).

IA Co has to mean Interarms Company. This must have been re-imported before importers were required to list their city & state.

The information I have regarding serial numbers would indicate that the gun (well, the frame anyways) was shipped to Brazil in 1938. Mr. Roy Jinks lists that first batch of 25,000 as having serial numbers in the range 181983 to 207043.

I have used full-moon clips with my Brazilian and they work fine. Half-moon clips may be more "correct", if that means anything to you.

It looks like whoever put it together did a fine job. It's probably worth as much as any other Brazilian shooter, maybe more. At least the bore doesn't look like a sewer pipe!

 

[handejector]

I think that stamp is International Armament Company.
Show a pic of the top of the frame and I can tell you whether it is the 1937 or 1946 contract. I think Jack is right- the earlier pre-war variety.

 

[Alk8944]

dnonac,

Not exactly "old" parts, but rather over-run parts from Model 1917 production during WWI. The frames were used for other N Frame production until they ran out, but since there were many Colt & S&W 1917s around there was no demand for the barrels or cylinders which had been produced. The few commercial 1917s that were produced used the military barrels, and have the military inspection mark of an eagle over S 34.

The Brazilian contract was let in 1937, hence the M 37 appellation for these guns. Interestingly, I have a commercial model with SN 18146X, a bit over 500 numbers before the first number reported for the Brazilian contract.

There are very good reproduction US 1917 stocks available if you want the original style, although I am not sure if those or commercial type stocks were used on the Brazilian guns.

 

[DCWilson]

Sounds like a great shooter. Don't worry about mixed parts. The Brazilian I bought came with a yoke from a different gun, and I put yet another one on it because the I didn't like the one it came with (fore-aft slop). It's now one of my favorite .45s because if put a dent or scratch on it I don't care. It's my shooter. And its accuracy is good enough at designated-use distances.

 

[Jack Flash]

One thing I just remembered about full-moon clips:
As I understand it, some are now made for modern revolvers only. IE, they don't work on M1917s. I don't know much about them as I have only used full-moon clips made by Ranch Products, and they work fine with my revolvers.

A company called Rimz makes polymer full-moon clips, and they specify different clips for different .45 ACP revolvers. Here's their website if you care to investigate:
page_4

 

[DCWilson]

One thing I just remembered about full-moon clips:
As I understand it, some are now made for modern revolvers only. IE, they don't work on M1917s. I don't know much about them as I have only used full-moon clips made by Ranch Products, and they work fine with my revolvers.

A company called Rimz makes polymer full-moon clips, and they specify different clips for different .45 ACP revolvers. Here's their website if you care to investigate:
page_4

I use Rimz full moon clips in my Brazilian, and they work just fine. I haven't tried them in either of the Brand C 1917s that I have in my safe. I didn't know that they made varieties of their product. I just took the ones my LGS had, and was lucky.

 

[smokey04]

Since this is to be a "fun gun" the exigencies of a gunfight don't need to be considered.However, full moon clips do not allow for partial reloads in emergencies.Half moons were the original idea allowing reloading after using 3 rounds. 2/3 moons are a later and,in my opinion,a great idea. If the piece were to be carried for"serious social intercourse" I would load it with .45 Auto Rims and carry some loose Auto Rims and 2/3 and 1/2 moons in my pocket or dump pouches.You just don't want to try to partially reload and dump good rounds on the ground in a bad situation. BTW: I would love to find a "clunker" or two for project guns. I have a couple of new 1950 barrels and at least one new 1955 barrel and cylinder in my warbag.I've just re-read Chick Gaylords "Handgunner's Guide" and have a fresh hankering for an old school[1917] .45 belly gun! Nick

 

[Muley Gil]

"If the piece were to be carried for"serious social intercourse" I would load it with .45 Auto Rims and carry some loose Auto Rims and 2/3 and 1/2 moons in my pocket or dump pouches.You just don't want to try to partially reload and dump good rounds on the ground in a bad situation."

I carried a cutdown S&W 1917, a Colt 1917, and later, a M625 in ACP as police duty weapons. I carried then loaded with full moon clips. I found that a speedloader pouch would hold two (2) full moon clips, one with the bullets down, the second on top with the bullets up. So, I had 24 rounds for reloading. Most officers only carried 12 extra rounds.

Today, officers are taught that if they fire a few rounds and want to "top off", to take out the partially empty mag and stick it in your pocket (not back in the pouch) and then reload a full magazine. You might was those extra rounds later.

When I was carrying a .45 ACP revolver, I could reload as fast and usually faster that my fellow officers armed with semi-auto pistols.

 

[dnonac]

I think that stamp is International Armament Company.
Show a pic of the top of the frame and I can tell you whether it is the 1937 or 1946 contract. I think Jack is right- the earlier pre-war variety.

Lee, here is the top of frame and patent dates on top of the barrel. From the other photos I've seen, the top of this one looks more like the rounded variety....I think.
Thanks...
Craig

 

[Jack Flash]

David:
I believe you had to order the right Rimz for your M1917. I think the "wrong" Rimz would not be compatable with an M1917, but only with an M625-4 or later.

Or I could be wrong. Like I said, I have no experience with them, just don't want to lead our new buddy astray.

 

[Muley Gil]

"From the other photos I've seen, the top of this one looks more like the rounded variety....I think."

Nope, you got lucky. That's one of the first contract Brazilians built in 1937. Notice the square notch rear sight; the 1917 frames were just a tiny cut in a pinched round top frame.

 

[Jack Flash]

Here's a picture someone posted long ago comparing the newer "Flat Top" sight to the older "Round Top":

 

[dnonac]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'm taking notes and learning as I go on this old girl.

To summarize what I think I'm reading, this gun is likely one of the first contract batch sent to Brazil in 1937, evidenced by the square notch design of the rear sight.
The mis-matched numbers/parts are common for a lot of these guns.
I am going to be on the lookout for some worn 1917 grips as I walk the show isles. Those newish shiny grips just don't look right on this gun.

BTW...I just checked the full moon clips I bought at the show and they work perfect. Good thing, since I bought 10 of them.

I'll try and get to the range in a couple of days and send in a range report.

 

[mkk41]

I think that stamp is International Armament Company.

Isn't that what Interarms Co was called before it was Interarms?

 

[pennlineman]

That gun has lots of character in a good kind of way. I'd have to find a beat up set of grips to make it complete. Cool revolver!

 

[2152hq]

Maybe the mark belongs to these guys

IA CO SAC CA
IAC SAC CA
Old Sacramento Armory
Import Arms Co.
Sacramento CA


A poorly done stamping could have left the 'SAC CA' portion off.

Seems like I've seen some Victorys marked by them also..might have been the somewhat crude lot from China before Bill & Hill cut off imports from them.

 

[dnonac]

Maybe the mark belongs to these guys

IA CO SAC CA
IAC SAC CA
Old Sacramento Armory
Import Arms Co.
Sacramento CA


A poorly done stamping could have left the 'SAC CA' portion off.

Seems like I've seen some Victorys marked by them also..might have been the somewhat crude lot from China before Bill & Hill cut off imports from them.

I think you are on to something there. The markings look like they are simply worn smooth following the IA CO part that is readable.

 

[JSR III]

Here is an import that I saw on GB with a rather worn out import stamping.

I think that it stands for Century Arms Inc, St Albany, VT.

 

[dnonac]

Here is an import that I saw on GB with a rather worn out import stamping.

I think that it stands for Century Arms International, St Albany, VT.

Very nice.
There is another stamp on the barrel flat on mine (right hand side of pic past the serial number) that looks kind of like an eagle head with a number below it....maybe 934? Is that some kind of import stamp as well?
Thanks...Craig

 

[JSR III]

The eagle stamp with the letter/number below is an inspector stamp. I believe that these were all inspected by the Springfiled Armory and each inspector was assigned or used a different letter/number.

There is a good explanation of this in Charlie pates book U.S. Handguns of World War II on page 74. It is a letter from D.B. Wesson VP to Col. William Borden at the Springfield Armory dated December 1938 explaining S&W's numbering system and explaining some of the other markings found on Model 1917 45 DA revolvers.

 

[CJKarl]

Your's is beat up, but I think mine is a little more beat. Still shoots nice.
I've been shooting without moon or 1/2 moons with no problems.

 

[617X10]

I had one, disliked using moon clips, and got rid of it for a profit. All of the numbers matched, but it was also one of the early (1938) versions. The earliest ones were purpose made for the Brazilians, as Smith and Wesson was all too happy to be making some money during the middle of the depression. You can tell by the more useful sighting notch in the frame. The ones built after WWII to fulfill the contract were assembled from leftover armory parts.

 

[dnonac]

"From the other photos I've seen, the top of this one looks more like the rounded variety....I think."

Nope, you got lucky. That's one of the first contract Brazilians built in 1937. Notice the square notch rear sight; the 1917 frames were just a tiny cut in a pinched round top frame.

You nailed it! Just got the shipping date...June 1937. Thanks for all the info.
Craig.