1917 Dilemma

[Big E3]

I have an interesting, to me, 1917. I can't pin down exactly what I have. Does anybody think this is a commercial or a Brazilian or possibly something else? Seems like a low serial number for a commercial, but the serial doesn't seem to fit into any category. I would think if someone was going to fake a commercial they would have picked a nicer gun to start with. It feels like the more I read about this thing the less I figure out and more confused I get.

Here's what I know:
The Frame:
It has a serial number of 165024, on the butt parallel to the frame.
It is NOT marked "U.S. Army" on the butt.
It has a lanyard ring.
The serial number is matching on the butt, the barrel, the cylinder and the ejector star.
It does have the S&W logo on the left side of the frame.
It has single line "MADE IN USA" on the right frame.
It has the round top strap.
It has the half round cut rear sight.
It does NOT have an internal hammer block safety.
The frame is machined with the "fouling cup" behind the barrel above the cylinder.
It has the serrated trigger.
It has the Springfield Armory mark of "S2" below an eagle on the frame at the yoke.
No flaming bomb stamped anywhere.
The frame number and yoke number match.
No numbers or markings on the back of the grip frame.
The frame appears to have been finished in glossy blue.
It has the smooth military style grips and the number on the back is stamped and is a number 818 higher than the frame serial number.

The Barrel:
It does NOT have "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" under the barrel.
It has the import stamp "CIA ST ALB VT" under the barrel meaning it was re-imported by Century International Arms of St Albans VT.
Patented dates on top of the barrel.
"S&W D.A.45" on the left side of the barrel, nothing on the right side.
It has the Springfield Armory mark of "S34" below an eagle behind the serial under the barrel.

It is in generally well used condition, not a sock drawer special. I'm also not familiar with the star on the back of the cylinder with the serial number.

 

[Penmon]

Does it have any British Stamps, like an arrow or somethings tons?
You are sure it's 45 and not 455 or 45 long colt.
If no and yes, it's most likely one made from spare frames after the Great War and that would be the comericial version.
What I don't understand is the S34 and eagle marking ?

 

[Jack Flash]

My two cents:
Based on Century's re-import mark, the S&W logo, and the "Made in USA" mark, I'm going to say it must be a Brazilian with the crest removed. Probably shipped to Brazil in 1946.

That s/n is a little low for this group, but I have a Brazilian that is only 800 numbers higher. You could letter yours to remove all doubt.

I'll sit back and see what the experts think.

 

[Big E3]

I have a British marked 38/200 it doesn't have any of those proof marks. The cylinder is definitely 45acp and for use with or without moon clips. Here are a few more pics showing marks.

 

[hardscrabble]

My two cents:
Based on Century's re-import mark, the S&W logo, and the "Made in USA" mark, I'm going to say it must be a Brazilian with the crest removed. Probably shipped to Brazil in 1946.

That s/n is a little low for this group, but I have a Brazilian that is only 800 numbers higher. You could letter yours to remove all doubt.

I'll sit back and see what the experts think.

I agree. I'm not an expert, but the only attributes here that would make me question that it is one of the second export to Brazil is the low SN, out of the typical range, and the missing crest on the side plate. I can't see any evidence it has been removed, since the seams look tight, but some of these marks had very light strikes and would be easy to polish out. I would think you'd be able to see something amiss though.

 

[Big E3]

I've been leaning toward Brazilian, but a very low serial number and I can't imagine buffing the crest out while leaving the gun so rough. This gun looks like it's been beat around and they were always cheap until recently so why bother removing the crest? But, I'm not aware of any other guns being re-imported, so Brazilian makes the most sense.

 

[Jack Flash]

Cy, that sounds reasonable.

I was thinking that one possibly had it's sideplate replaced. Or maybe S&W didn't put the crest on that one? Never say never with S&W.

Penmon: That sure looks like a 5.5" barrel, and the barrel has the same s/n as the butt so probably original (and correct for an M1917). A .455 would have a 6.5" barrel. Of course it could be cut down but the markings look correct and well centered.

The S4 and Eagle marks were WWI US inspector marks. A lot of ancient parts for M1917s were discovered when S&W was doing a post-WWII clean up. These parts were then assembled into complete M1917s and sold to Brazil in 1946.

 

[Muley Gil]

Since it has the one line "MADE IN USA" stamping, it was built sometime from mid 1922 onward.

The stamping looks like it was done by hand. Also, my commercial 1917 in the 180xxx range is stamped with the barrel pointing to the right and the font is smaller.

Go to this thread and look at the SN photo in post # 7:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/475488-stamp-mark-1917-a.html

This is how my 1917 is stamped, with the small digits.

 

[Hondo44]

The pertinent clues are:

1. the serial # reads with barrel to the left which indicates a post WW II produced gun. But as Muley Gil pointed out, they're awfully crooked for factory stamping and in the wrong direction.

2. Serial #s for 1917s are so jumbled that it's the least reliable indicator of vintage and which model it is.

3. the eagle inspector stamps indicate that the frame and barrel are indeed WW I 1917 surplus parts and is very common.

4. The S&W logo on left side frame indicates post 1920 frame production.

5. The Made in USA stamp (ordered May 1922) clearly indicates post WW I production of the frame.

6. The surplus WW I smooth grips indicate Brazilian contract, but since they're non matching, likely replaced.

7. Missing Brazilian logo (could have been removed) but I have my doubts.

8. Round top frame/U notch rear sight are common for later assembled 1917s and 1946 2nd Brazilian contract.

9. The lack of the early style sideplate hammer block is consistent with serial numbers below 185,000.

So what do you have?

A preponderance of the evidence indicates it's likely a pre 1946 assembled or faked commercial model. Lanyard swivels are common on these. If a genuine commercial model, the checkered grips it should have, were swapped out for the surplus grips.

One anomaly is: In Dec 1936, logo ordered moved to the sideplate on the right and made larger. But I wouldn't call that a deal killer.

COMMERCIAL MODELS, pertinent facts:

Com'l 1917 models have a serial # parallel to the butt like all other com'l models except those I frames stamped on the front grip strap.

"The factory added the 1917 as a regular cataloged commercial model in Catalog D-2 which was issued in Jan, 1921.
Same basic gun as a 1917 Army. That's not to say there were none sold into the commercial market before that; there are 'no rules' that apply.

Features of Commercial models post WW I:

No Army or US Property marks.
5-1/2" in cal 45 ACP, but the barrel reads "S.&W. D.A. 45".
Bright Blue.
Butt Swivel.
S&W logo on left side, Checkered non-medallion, convex top stocks during the 1920s. [Flat silver medallions thru the 1930s and war years.]"
The lowest com'l model in the SWCA database = #167382 shipped Oct, 1922." Lee Jarrett

Unused serial numbered military frames preceding and following #169959, (the estimated last military unit made), were assembled thru # 209791 by 1946.
Some with very varied shipping dates were assembled into commercial model 1917s, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1937 and 1946. Most will have the flaming bomb or eagle government inspector stamps in various locations but not on the outside of the frame which were finished off; only in the yoke. And there's cases of a frame made into a 45 ACP having a surplus 1917 barrel and cylinder which will have the inspector stamps. Example: all matching serial number is #55639 (assembly # 18408 match in all 3 locations as well), it's a round top/U sight notch, has Eagle head proofs inspectors stamps on barrel & cylinder; S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel. If it has the S&W trademark on the frame it is a commercial gun, at least after ~ 1920. War time 1917s did not have S&W trademark logos.

A few more were produced c. 1946 - 1950 (991 is the usual quantity quoted), most in the 1917 serial range # S209972 to # S210782 (811 #s), some without the S prefix, issued as commercial models post WW II, found with and w/o lanyard swivels, and are considered Model 1917 Army Post War Transitional models

 

[Hondo44]

Big E3,

Almost forgot, the star on the cyl can mean a return trip to the factory. There may be a date under the left grip on the side of the grip frame.

 

[Big E3]

Thank you Jim, a lot of really good info in your post and thanks to everyone else for your thoughts as well. I took the grip panels off not much under there. I found a "0" on the right side, nothing on the left. It sounds like this may remain a mystery unless I get a letter from Jinks. Thought I would take a chance, paid $500 for it, I'm guessing that may be at the top end on value. Oh well, it locks up tight, has good rifling and cylinder looks good so should still make a good shooter. I can't get past the import marks, I keep coming back to Brazilian in my mind. Does anybody think it is worth spending the extra money to get the letter?

 

[Hondo44]

The 0 is just a factory assembler's mark. The missing rework date is not unusual for certain periods, nothing is ever completely consistent on S&Ws.

The import stamp can mean it just left the country and could have gone anywhere in the world and imported back into the USA. With the importer being in VT, it may have been purchased here by an individual and carried or sent to Canada, then imported back from Canada.

A letter may be helpful, especially if it was shipped out of the country or to an exporter in the USA. Letters usually show the shipping destination, but won't have any import information.

 

[Jack Flash]

... It sounds like this may remain a mystery unless I get a letter from Jinks. Thought I would take a chance, paid $500 for it, I'm guessing that may be at the top end on value. Oh well, it locks up tight, has good rifling and cylinder looks good so should still make a good shooter. I can't get past the import marks, I keep coming back to Brazilian in my mind. Does anybody think it is worth spending the extra money to get the letter?

I sure think you should letter it. If nothing else, it will sure tell you whether it went from the factory in a shipment to Brazil or if it was shipped as a Commercial Variation. Pricewise, that information could mean a lot.

It doesn't seem likely that someone would go to so much trouble to remove the crest or replace the sideplate, stamp new numbers, etc, but then leave that import mark. That's why I can't get my head around the "It's a Fake" theory.

Well, we can speculate forever. The only effective thing to do is get some authoritive information from Roy Jinks.

 

[JSR III]

If you want to verify that the side plate is original to the gun, carefully remove it and check the assembly number on the backside. If it matches the ones in the yoke area, then it is original. Check the face with a bright light and magnifier to see if there are any traces of the stamp. Some were very faint and it wouldn't take much for it to disappear to the naked eye.

The serial number generally puts it into the original run of 1917's that ran from 1 to 169,XXX.

Jack Flash raises an interesting point however, as he has a Brazilian that is only 800 number higher. Perhaps these guns came back to S&W with leftover parts and were assembled and included in the Brazilian shipment. S&W did not waste inventory and it was just a gun to them that represented money, not a collectors item that had to fall within a perfect range of serial numbers.

The star is an interesting tidbit. S&W usually placed the star on the butt to identify a reworked gun. This example has no star on the butt and no rework date coded on the left frame????

Not sure if a letter will reveal any significant information but at this point, if it were mine, $50 would be a cheap price to pay to further my investigation.

 

[Hondo44]

James,

Good idea to check the assembly # on the inside of the sideplate!

The missing star from the butt serial # or even the side of the grip frame is interesting.

And the butt # reading with barrel to the left which is post war makes me wonder if other Brazilian 1946 contracts read that way. Anyone have a '46 that reads that way???

 

[Big E3]

So now my question is do all side plates normally have an assembly number? It took a while to get it off and clean it up, not seeing any numbers.

 

[Hondo44]

One can never say never about S&Ws, but a side plate w/o a matching assembly # is highly unusual on an all original gun. The # would normally be in the milled groove.

 

[Big E3]

I think this was meant to be a puzzle, looks like Jinks is inevitable. Is he doing letters again?

 

[jebstuart]

When the "Journeymen" among us are doing a collective head scratching, I'll stay tuned.
Jeb

 

[Muley Gil]

My "guess" is that this is a leftover WW I frame that was un-numbered and then assembled for the 1946 Brazilian order. The larger digits and the "wrong-way" post WW II handstamped SN on the butt point to this.

The Brazilian stamped sideplate could have been replaced with this unmarked, unstamped one.

Does the underside of the barrel have the correct SN? Could you post a picture of that number.