Exactly. The number on the butt of my '46 Brazilian reads properly with the barrel to the left. SN 173159; the round-top frame indicates it was among the leftover frames from the 1920s.
1917 Dilemma
- Thread starter Big E3
- Start date
Exactly. The number on the butt of my '46 Brazilian reads properly with the barrel to the left. SN 173159; the round-top frame indicates it was among the leftover frames from the 1920s.
handejector
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I was going to ask for a good closeup of the sideplate, but since it has no number, it has most likely been replaced.
Perhaps by a Brazilian armorer, perhaps when it got the star, or perhaps by Joe Blow who did not like his gun saying Brazil.
Your gun is a 1946 Brazilian.
Confusion abounds on 1917s.
So, I'll state a few things again that I believe to be facts-
1>The first Brazilian Contract in 1936 was all commercial guns exactly like any other commercial 1917s of the period:
A- Flat Top
B- High Polish
C- Numbered ABOVE the WW I range
D- Frames will NOT have Springfield stamps because they were made after the War
E- Barrels and cylinders may or may not have Springfield stamps
F- Checkered grips with medallions
G- ALL have logos on left
H- All have numbers read with barrel pointing right
1946 Brazilians-
Everybody wants to complicate these guns. They're simple. Hellstrom found a bunch of scrap iron, and turned it into money.
The remaining WW I frames were most likely discovered when they cleaned up after WW II and were getting ready to eventually MOVE the Factory. The new Factory was going to be totally self-financed. NO loans. Hellstrom had been hired as President at a fixed salary PLUS a percentage of profits. That deal eventually made him one of the highest paid executives in the US!
Are you tracking with me here?
CASH FLOW......
PROFITS......
We can take these obsolete, outdated, useless frames and scrap them when we move because we can't make guns with them because we haven't sold a round top frame with those awful, narrow sights in 20 years (since 1927)
OR........
Make the Brazilians an offer they can't refuse.
We'll be shipping those obsolete frames WAY off so they don't make us look bad. We'll be making good money off of scarp iron. We'll be using up all those damn barrels and cylinders the Gov made us buy back after WW I.
We're filling a 12,000 piece order with most of the materials paid for so long ago they are basically free.
WHOOPEE!
2> 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames
B- Satin Blue
C- No hammer blocks
D- Logo on left, "Made in USA" on right
E- Smooth grips. Newly made, not leftovers. Numbered to the gun.
F- Frames may or may not have a Springfield stamp. If a frame was a reject, it won't have an acceptance stamp. If a frame was simply a leftover that did not get used, it may have the stamp.
G- The number is read with barrel pointing left.
A 1946 Brazilian can have a serial number that falls ANYWHERE in the 1917 range. I've seen several 5 digits. I've seen a 4 digit. There are rumors of a 3 digit or two.
THIS is where the only mystery for me comes in-
WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.
General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.
The Transition guns in the final run were all Flat Tops.
They all have modern hammer blocks whether they have the S or not.
All I have seen had swivels.
All shipped with checkered magnas.
Brazilian armorers apparently did many repairs over the years. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels made by S&W. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels that were NOT made by S&W that were probably made in Brazil.
I've seen reblued Brazilians that I believe had been reblued in Brazil. Generally, fairly nice matte blue. They did not appear to have been buffed. More likely pickled or bead blasted.
Perhaps by a Brazilian armorer, perhaps when it got the star, or perhaps by Joe Blow who did not like his gun saying Brazil.
Your gun is a 1946 Brazilian.
Confusion abounds on 1917s.
So, I'll state a few things again that I believe to be facts-
1>The first Brazilian Contract in 1936 was all commercial guns exactly like any other commercial 1917s of the period:
A- Flat Top
B- High Polish
C- Numbered ABOVE the WW I range
D- Frames will NOT have Springfield stamps because they were made after the War
E- Barrels and cylinders may or may not have Springfield stamps
F- Checkered grips with medallions
G- ALL have logos on left
H- All have numbers read with barrel pointing right
1946 Brazilians-
Everybody wants to complicate these guns. They're simple. Hellstrom found a bunch of scrap iron, and turned it into money.
The remaining WW I frames were most likely discovered when they cleaned up after WW II and were getting ready to eventually MOVE the Factory. The new Factory was going to be totally self-financed. NO loans. Hellstrom had been hired as President at a fixed salary PLUS a percentage of profits. That deal eventually made him one of the highest paid executives in the US!
Are you tracking with me here?
CASH FLOW......
PROFITS......
We can take these obsolete, outdated, useless frames and scrap them when we move because we can't make guns with them because we haven't sold a round top frame with those awful, narrow sights in 20 years (since 1927)
OR........
Make the Brazilians an offer they can't refuse.
We'll be shipping those obsolete frames WAY off so they don't make us look bad. We'll be making good money off of scarp iron. We'll be using up all those damn barrels and cylinders the Gov made us buy back after WW I.
We're filling a 12,000 piece order with most of the materials paid for so long ago they are basically free.
WHOOPEE!
2> 1946 Brazilians I have seen-
A- All are Round Top WW I frames
B- Satin Blue
C- No hammer blocks
D- Logo on left, "Made in USA" on right
E- Smooth grips. Newly made, not leftovers. Numbered to the gun.
F- Frames may or may not have a Springfield stamp. If a frame was a reject, it won't have an acceptance stamp. If a frame was simply a leftover that did not get used, it may have the stamp.
G- The number is read with barrel pointing left.
A 1946 Brazilian can have a serial number that falls ANYWHERE in the 1917 range. I've seen several 5 digits. I've seen a 4 digit. There are rumors of a 3 digit or two.
THIS is where the only mystery for me comes in-
WHY / WHEN / HOW was a WWI US contract number put on a surplus frame? IF the frame was numbered in WWI, it would also have the "US Army" marks. So, did they grind that off and re-stamp the number, or did they simply find an UNUSED number in the records and stamp it on a previously unnumbered frame? IF that is what they did, WHY? Why not just keep going with where the numbers were at that time? Puzzling.
General Data-
Most Brazilians have mismatched grips. They apparently came in soaked or packed in oil or cosmoline.
I think Century pulled the grips off most of them, soaked them in solvent, and threw a pair of grips back on them. They paid no attention to whether the gun should have checkered or smooth grips.
The Transition guns in the final run were all Flat Tops.
They all have modern hammer blocks whether they have the S or not.
All I have seen had swivels.
All shipped with checkered magnas.
Brazilian armorers apparently did many repairs over the years. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels made by S&W. I've seen replaced, unnumbered barrels that were NOT made by S&W that were probably made in Brazil.
I've seen reblued Brazilians that I believe had been reblued in Brazil. Generally, fairly nice matte blue. They did not appear to have been buffed. More likely pickled or bead blasted.
Muley, in my post #4 the third pic is the bottom of the barrel with matching number. The first pic is the cylinder with matching number.
It sounds like if this gun simply had a Brazilian side plate, any other issues the gun has could be explained away as a clean up of parts for the 1946 contract to Brazil.
It sounds like if this gun simply had a Brazilian side plate, any other issues the gun has could be explained away as a clean up of parts for the 1946 contract to Brazil.
As mentioned above, here is 55639:
Grip Serial Number
Right side view shows Brazilian Star and Made inn USA.
Left side view shows S&W logo
Cylinder view show serial number 55639 and S24 inspector stamp.
Inside view of side plate reveals assembly number 18408.
Frame at Yoke view assembly number 18408
Yoke Assembly number 18408
Inside of ejector star serial number 55639
Underside of barrel show serial number 55639 and S34 inspector stamp
Grip Serial Number
Right side view shows Brazilian Star and Made inn USA.
Left side view shows S&W logo
Cylinder view show serial number 55639 and S24 inspector stamp.
Inside view of side plate reveals assembly number 18408.
Frame at Yoke view assembly number 18408
Yoke Assembly number 18408
Inside of ejector star serial number 55639
Underside of barrel show serial number 55639 and S34 inspector stamp
Last edited:
schutzen-jager
Member
back in the early 90's Century Arms sold a very large quantity of Brazilians as U fix Em gunsmith specials for about $20.00 each IIRC - missing parts such as grips , hammers , side plates , + etc. - replacement parts were cheap back then + many were put back into service for less than a $50.00 investment - i did it myself - still have one of the Brazilian army holsters that they sold three for $9.00 -
Thx Lee, all very interesting, informative, and pretty conclusive for the OP's 1946 Brazilian.
Not to nit pick, and not important, but it seems we've seen a few square top '46 contract Brazilians, just saying.
Yes, the renumbering is puzzling; good questions. IF they ground off the US stamp/SN on the butt and restamped it, not very likely they kept track of which number was ground off of which frame and paying attention to restamp the same # back on the same gun. The guy grinding them off was likely different from the guy doing the restamping somewhere else in the plant. Having said that, if the frame had a SN, it likely would have a yoke with matching serial number on the rear vertical surface. So maybe not that difficult to have the stamping guy put the same # back on the same frame butt.
I can see them restamping them from an inventory list of all numbers that were ground off. Or more possibly stamping unused numbers on unstamped frames; maybe not researching unused #s (seems a pain in the neck) but maybe they had a ready list to work from. But still, as you say, just using new #s of the time seems much easier, again unless that would make it non-matching to and if the yoke was already numbered. Well just my speculation and that's virtually worthless, so we'll never know.
Mismatched grips due to the importer switching grips is something I hadn't thought of. I was too focused on thinking about what the factory did and forgetting all the other hands in the soup after that.
Last edited:
Jack Flash
Member
I vaguely remember those ads in ShotGun News. That is a very likely piece of this puzzle.
handejector
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There may be some Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,498 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 502 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
If they found 11,998 usable WW I frames, I'd expect there to be 2 Flat Tops in the 1946 contract.
Etc, etc.....
I'd expect Hellstrom to round up, not down.
I've just never seen one.
Not many people letter Brazilians. A Flat Top Brazilian lettered to 1946 would definitely prove the point, and wouldn't shock me.
It would then be interesting to examine them-
Modern hammer blocks in all?
Pre-War hammer blocks in all?
No hammer blocks? (using up WW I sideplates?)
Some with, some without?
I've got one of these Brazilian models, #170729, round top, with small C I A import mark, that had the early dished top grips, not matching. Brazilian crest on side plate. Roy had given me an April 46 ship date.
It looks like the serial number on the butt of the fkienast gun has a similar size and font to mine. Also the S&W stamp on the left side is in the same location. H. Richard, does your serial on the butt have a similar font and direction (barrel left) as mine? And is the S&W stamp located in the same spot on the left side? I also see on the fkienast gun the barrel number and inspector marks are similar as well.
I feel like if I could find a Brazilian side plate and have it fit to mine, it would eliminate any future confusion about this gun.
I feel like if I could find a Brazilian side plate and have it fit to mine, it would eliminate any future confusion about this gun.
In retrospect, the more I look at it, the more I think your butt serial # is factory correct.
I think your right, if you find a Brazilian side plate.
I think your right, if you find a Brazilian side plate.
