1920s M&P?

[SaintMute]

I love vintage. If you're here you likely do to! It doesn't have to be mint. In fact, in MANY cases I prefer some things that show their age with a beautiful patina. So that brings me to my newest heirloom!


My father just passed this down to me on Christmas with the story that this belonged to my Great-grandfather and he used it while working out in the oil fields of Texas in the 1920s and he was known to be a crack shot at shooting rattlesnakes with it.


It's obviously been used and abused over the years and some may just consider it trash or a wall hanger at this point. My father says it's still safe to use and I do recall him taking it out and firing it... oh no... that must've been over 20 years ago now! Time flies!



Okay okay.. I'll get to the point. Reading through other posts I'm gathering this is an M&P? I haven't been able to pin down the year it was made with the serial # 513579. It's a 38 special with no model number, 5 screws, a 6 inch barrel, fixed sights, a half moon sight on the front. Rounded butt with old chipped pearl grips.


I'm considering removing the grips (and keeping them) and replacing them with some wider wood grips. If I do.. would this be a K frame? Any information about the pistol or advice you care to pass on to me is greatly appreciated! It's obviously rough and I'm going to have to give some attention to a few rust spots. I imagine it's something that wouldn't be appreciated by anyone other than a grateful grandchild.

 

[DARE]

It is an M&P and it is a K frame. Any round butt K frame grips will fit. Some folks will be along that can give you a good estimate of when it shipped.
S&W did not ship in serial number order. In some cases the interval between manufacture and shipping could be years.

 

[ChattCat]

Good ole dad! I’ve found that these guns are just as good today as they were 100 years ago. Is the bore bright and the cylinder bores clean. Good old 158 gr. Lead is best choice for shooting. Mine s/n 148xxx is rough but tight, bore light pitting but shoots as good as I can point it. Enjoy, I found some 70ish round butt magnas for 25 bucks and in decent shape. You may have to replace the round head side plate screw with a flat head screw. Or go commando.
Have fun!
Happy New Year!

 

[22hipower]

I have SN 452510 which shipped in September of 1923 so yours likely shipped a year or two later; mid to late '20s anyway although as DARE notes, S&W didn't ship in order.

Nice old gun, and would be priceless to me if my great grandfather had owned it. Thanks for sharing it with us.

And welcome to the Forum. Lots of great information and great people too here. Hope we see you often.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[DWalt]

Mid-20s dating. Not close to my SN list at present so I can't be more precise. It is called a .38 Military and Police Model, round butt. The square butt version was somewhat more popular. The grips are not original. It is likely that the original grips were black hard rubber. And it is a K frame. Period correct style replica grips are available. Along with a variety of more modern RB grips. Look on the big online site. Or see S&W Grips K Frame Round Butt Reproduction

 

[SaintMute]

Thanks David!


I'm curious how everyone feels about having something like this re-finished. This obviously isn't going to be re-sold because it's staying in the family. If I had found something like this out in the wild it would cost more than it was worth so that wouldn't be a smart decision. So really I'm asking about how people feel about modifying their heirloom that they have more emotional than financial attachment to. Do you feel guilty swapping out grips and modifying them? Do you feel like it's been passed down to you to do whatever you want with? Every person is different and every family is different when it comes to these things. Personally I'm torn. I feel like preserving it as it is to highlight its story. On the other hand anything that extends the life of it or renews it might put a smile on his face. I really don't know how he felt about it. With the pearl handles I feel like he might have been proud of it. On the other hand it might have just been a tool and that was the end of it.

It is an M&P and it is a K frame. Any round butt K frame grips will fit. Some folks will be along that can give you a good estimate of when it shipped.
S&W did not ship in serial number order. In some cases the interval between manufacture and shipping could be several years.

 

[DWalt]

Thanks David!


I'm curious how everyone feels about having something like this re-finished. This obviously isn't going to be re-sold because it's staying in the family. If I had found something like this out in the wild it would cost more than it was worth so that wouldn't be a smart decision. So really I'm asking about how people feel about modifying their heirloom that they have more emotional than financial attachment to. Do you feel guilty swapping out grips and modifying them? Do you feel like it's been passed down to you to do whatever you want with? Every person is different and every family is different when it comes to these things. Personally I'm torn. I feel like preserving it as it is to highlight its story. On the other hand anything that extends the life of it or renews it might put a smile on his face. I really don't know how he felt about it. With the pearl handles I feel like he might have been proud of it. On the other hand it might have just been a tool and that was the end of it.

One word. Don't. Replacing grips for shooting purposes is OK, but keep the MOPs.

 

[DWalt]

You can clean up the plating somewhat with a good metal polish. It won't make it look like new, but it will make a cosmetic improvement.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! DWalt's response is what you are likely to hear from a majority of collectors. The forum gets a lot of "restoration" questions which are likely feelers for "can I get more for my gun if I have it refinished." And, the answer is 'no'. Refinishes are fairly easy for an experienced collector to spot. So, the tendency is to suspect the asker of trying to scam a buyer.

In your case, the gun is an heirloom and not particularly valuable as a collectible to begin with. If you want to stop the rusting and make it look presentable for future family, I don't see any problem with that. I have done it with a .32 Regulation Police that belonged to my grandfather and was burned in a fire. I have no regrets. You just have to remember that a nickel refinish will likely cost around $350 and that is about what the gun will be worth afterward. If you decide to do it, just make sure the hammer, trigger and extractor star are not plated to maintain some originality. Another option is to have it engraved before it is plated to make it a top level heirloom. If you peruse the forums, you will see some incredible works of art that anyone would be proud to own. But that can be a rather expensive option. YMMV!

 

[SaintMute]

Thanks Jeff!
So he likely had it since it was new. Yes it's definitely priceless to me. Not too long ago my father also passed down a wonderful Shapleigh Hardware 3 blade pocket knife that belonged to my great-grandfather too. It's been passed down through the generations and now it's been one of my EDC pocket knives ever since!


One day I'll pass all of these down to my son. Fortunately he's one that will actually appreciate them.

I have SN 452510 which shipped in September of 1923 so yours likely shipped a year or two later; mid to late '20s anyway although as DARE notes, S&W didn't ship in order.

Nice old gun, and would be priceless to me if my great grandfather had owned it. Thanks for sharing it with us.

And welcome to the Forum. Lots of great information and great people too here. Hope we see you often.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

 

[DARE]

SaintMute,
Think most of the guys here would say no to refinish. Me among them. Clean and oil and some metal polish as has been recommended. Refinishing will not increase the value and might decrease it.
As has been said, get some replacement grips if you want but retain the MOP.
Congrats on a family heirloom. To me they are priceless.

 

[SaintMute]

Thanks DWalt!
Great idea. I'm thinking some very very fine soft steel wool and some polish to preserve it and show off the history behind it. I'm pretty sure my son will appreciate that when it becomes his.


So he replaced the original grips with these fancy ones? Wow that really paints a picture for me! I feel like that does give some insight into how he felt about it. You don't put fancy pearl grips on a hammer so he was definitely proud of it!

You can clean up the plating somewhat with a good metal polish. It won't make it look like new, but it will make a cosmetic improvement.

 

[Retired W4]

Beautiful family heirloom. The first thing I would do is a safety/function check on the old boy. Timing, lock-up, no push off, etc. Then sit down with some Flitz or Mothers Mag and clean up a storm. Those old mother-of-pearl grips are perfect! Be careful with them.

 

[DARE]

One other thing. Probably should take a look under the grips. MOP grips are notorious for causing rust on the grip frame.

 

[DWalt]

Somewhere (I have not seen it for years) I have a nickeled square butt .38 M&P of about the same age and condition. The main difference was that it had fairly nice original 1920s wood grips. I remember that I paid $150 for it around 10 years back. I used metal polish on it and it made a significant cosmetic improvement. Except in the areas where the plating was worn away. The problem with nickeled guns vs. blued is that they become shabby looking once the nickel starts to show wear. That M&P is one of two nickeled revolvers I own. The other is a 29-3 .44 Mag. I prefer blued guns.

 

[gmborkovic]

Is there anyway to ban the term "steel wool" from being used on this Forum? And substitute "oily rag" in its place?

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome!

Don't use steel wool, no matter how soft. If any wool is needed, bronze wool is the way to go.

Try a good metal polish first.

 

[JP@AK]

Don't use steel wool, no matter how soft. If any wool is needed, bronze wool is the way to go.

ABSOLUTELY AGREE! NEVER use steel wool on a firearm. Bronze or pure copper wool, yes. No matter how fine, steel is still steel and will scratch up the metal, exactly what you don't want to do.

Try a good metal polish first.

Flitz can be a good choice, but go easy and use a clean rag.

Best of luck. Be happy to have a working family heirloom.

This Model of 1905 target model belonged to my grandfather. It shipped on April 6, 1908, to Portland, Oregon. He got it in the 1930s as payment for work he did on a Model T. He died just before I left for my first year in 'Nam and my dad gave it to me after I came back from my second year. It is not particularly pretty, but it is one that will never leave the family.

 

[Inland7-45]

Refinish or not

Thanks David!


I'm curious how everyone feels about having something like this re-finished. This obviously isn't going to be re-sold because it's staying in the family. If I had found something like this out in the wild it would cost more than it was worth so that wouldn't be a smart decision. So really I'm asking about how people feel about modifying their heirloom that they have more emotional than financial attachment to. Do you feel guilty swapping out grips and modifying them? Do you feel like it's been passed down to you to do whatever you want with? Every person is different and every family is different when it comes to these things. Personally I'm torn. I feel like preserving it as it is to highlight its story. On the other hand anything that extends the life of it or renews it might put a smile on his face. I really don't know how he felt about it. With the pearl handles I feel like he might have been proud of it. On the other hand it might have just been a tool and that was the end of it.

Definitely a no. There is nothing to be gained and a lot to be lost by refinishing. These kind of guns have earned their scars. If the lock up is good and the action hasn’nt been messed with this gun will still shoot as good as the day it was made.

If you plan to shoot the gun a lot some 148 gr wad cutters or 158 gr round nose lead will be fun to shoot. If you want something a little more hand filling there are some options. Maybe the correct walnut stocks from the same era in the same condition as your gun. You could add a BK grip adapter. Or a set of older round butt magnas with the grip adapter.

I have a .32 Regulation Police that was made in 1940. It has its original factory nickel with the plating completely worn away on both sides of the frame and much of the remaining nickel has turned cloudy. This gun does not have the family connection that yours has. But I would never consider refinishing it. Its just a great shooter that I plan to preserve and enjoy as is. I am not saying that olds guns should never be refinished. In some cases it makes sense. In the case heirloom guns like yours it is best to enjoy them as is a preserve and save the history for the next generation.

 

[rct269]

As noted, steel wool will produce nothing but damage. Bronze wool and some oil will do a fine job of cleaning it up.

Refinishing will make it look better (or worse), depending on who you might choose to do the work. It will add NO value.

I was what I call a lunatic fringe collector. I bought only high condition guns in original finish. Having decided it would best to leave behind a pile of money rather than a pile of guns, I arranged to have my collection sold. I have exactly one S&W left. It too is a 1920's M&P---bought new in 1920, and carried daily in the hip pocket of my father-in-law's overalls for the next 60 or so years. It's not pretty, but it works fine. Actually, it works way better than fine after I stuck a Miculek spring kit it, and started using it to practice point and shoot. It'll stay in the family as it is.

Ralph Tremaine