1937 and 1917 revolvers

[peyton]

I just got these from a forum member here and this is the information I got with them. "It is a Model 1937 Brazilian contract S&W in 45 ACP. It is a non-import piece. I'll explain: the Brazilian contract was for 25,000 units (same configuration as the 1917 you bought). All 25K have the Brazilian State crest on the right side of the receiver opposite the S&W crest on the left. 14000 were imported into Brazil and stamped with import marks. 11000 were not imported and don't have Brazilian import marks. This gun has no import marks. The condition of this gun is close to the one you bought, about 97%. It has a small scratch on the barrel but otherwise is in superb condition. It was not used much and mechanically it's perfect. The only down side - the grips are not original. The gun's serial number is 2080XX (and all numbers match) which makes it one of the original contract guns and not ones assembled later using WWI parts. Those are easy to spot due to the low serial numbers".

Found a picture of the 1937 serial number, hopefully this narrows it down to production date and whether it made the trip south.

The 1917 information, " bought it from a gunshop who had purchased an estate sale of guns. Gun was in one family its entire life, issued to a young cavalry officer in the 20's. He preferred a 1911 so kept the gun in cosmoline for most of its life. Son got it years ago and did nothing with it. Gunshop cleaned it of cosmoline and found the gun in near perfect condition".

Lastly together, I will not get to see them until next years R&R.

 

[murphydog]

Peyton;

Both beautiful guns. 1917s in nice condition have gone up greatly in value recently. The 1937 also looks original, but the information you received from the seller is a bit confusing:

"14000 were imported into Brazil and stamped with import marks. 11000 were not imported and don't have Brazilian import marks. This gun has no import marks."

My understanding is an importer's stamp is put on the gun when it is returned to, not delivered from, the US. The seller may have meant "proof stamp" but I don't think the Brazilians did this. Also, Brazil bought 25000 but only took delivery of 14000? Finally, on the photo of the left side there is a stamping on the lower grip frame, can you say what it is?

Thank you for your service, and stay safe.

 

[DCWilson]

That's an excellent Brazilian; they are usually a lot rougher than that. Congratulations on picking that one up.

The 1917 is a beauty, too. I got one in similar almost new condition last year, and I can't bring myself to shoot it. My Brazilian (a 1946 contract gun made from '20s parts) is my shooter 1917.

I agree with Alan that the commentary you got on the Brazilian is a little hard to integrate with what I thought I knew about them. My impression had been that all the 1937 guns had serial numbers under 200000, but could be wrong because I am not an expert on these. I have seen a reference to one gun in the 208xxx range as belonging to the 1946 shipment. Though that contract was filled largely with guns assembled from stored parts inventory, I believe some later-numbered guns went into it as well. I think the 1946 contract was for a total of 15000 units.

I'm working from memory here. I'll come back and correct this post (or add to the thread) if I find out I am wrong about something.

I too thank you for your service. Stay safe.

EDITED TO ADD: OK, I was wrong about the "under 200000" thing. SCSW indicates there were at least a few 207xxx revolvers shipped to Brazil before WWII, but several hundred others in that range were shipped after the war as part of the 1946 contract. I still think a Brazilian numbered 208xxx is likelier to have been shipped as part of the second contract, but only records research will answer the question for sure.

 

[peyton]

Alan, I think you are correct that the import stamp is put on when they come to the US. If I understand what he was trying to say it was never exported. That would make more sense. I will try to see if I have a picture of the serial number for the 1937. Now I bought both and he stated he never shot either, due to quality. I guarantee you all that will not be the case when I get home!!

 

[bamabiker]

Wow those both look great. Congrats and enjoy them.
I have a Brazilian at the other end of condition. Been reblued, cylinder does not match, has play in it, wrong grips and no lanyard but it still shoots pretty good.
Thank you for your service.

 

[Jack Flash]

... All 25K have the Brazilian State crest on the right side of the receiver opposite the S&W crest on the left. 14000 were imported into Brazil and stamped with import marks. 11000 were not imported and don't have Brazilian import marks. ...

This is the first time I have heard that. If the seller is a Forum Member, perhaps he could elaborate?

Regardless of the above, both look to be in near-perfect condition. Being the suspicious type, I would examine them both very closely for any sign of refinishing. It certainly looks like you have two very desirable revolvers there.

Edited to add:
The Brazilian looks like it has the square notch rear sight, which supports the contention that it is "one of the original contract guns and not ones assembled later using WWI parts." The serial number, however, puts it with those having a post-WWII shipment date.

 

[peyton]

I found a picture of the 1937 and posted it above, hope that helps in figuring out if it left for the sunny beaches of Brazil. What were the primary forces armed with the 1937's, military or police or both? When did all the imports start coming back to the U.S and what did the Brazilian replace them with? Was it the Ballista Molina?

 

[john traveler]

My understanding is that the entire M1937 purchase were issued to the Brazilian National Police and the Army. The were contemporaries of the Balister-Molina M1911 lookalike pistol.

When the .45 ACP sidearms were replaced, they were replace with the Bralizian-made variant of the M92 Beretta in 9mm.

 

[cshann]

you guys have been a very good understanding what I bought
I really want to thank you. I am new on this forum stuff so please forgive me if I don't get it right all the tine.
Thanks
cshann

 

[Tuna1]

Guy, I am a bit confused about the parts usage in the 1937 models. I have an early one with serial number 17005X. This one has the receiver (Eagle/S2),barrel (Eagle/S34) and cylinder(Eagle/S24) stamped with the old USGI acceptance stamps. All parts have the same serial number on them too. I would have thought that the early revolvers would have had the left over parts from the Model 1917 and the later ones only new parts.

 

[DCWilson]

Guy, I am a bit confused about the parts usage in the 1937 models. I have an early one with serial number 17005X. This one has the receiver (Eagle/S2),barrel (Eagle/S34) and cylinder(Eagle/S24) stamped with the old USGI acceptance stamps. All parts have the same serial number on them too. I would have thought that the early revolvers would have had the left over parts from the Model 1917 and the later ones only new parts.

The situation is a little goofy. Several thousand frames and major parts were manufactured during the early '20s and stored either at the S&W plant or in the hands of the U.S. Army, under whose contract they had been produced in the first place. When S&W got the first Brazilian contract in 1937, it was filled from new production with new frame numbers. When the postwar contract loomed as a possibility, the factory had either rediscovered the old parts in a storeroom or reacquired them from the Army. Those frames, earlier in date but later in manufacture and distribution, made up the majority of the second Brazilian contract.

There's an interesting quick way to distinguish which Brazilians belong to which contract. The first contract guns are built on post-1926 frames, which have flattened tops and square-notch rear sights. The second contract Brazilians, mostly built with pre-1926 frames, have rounded tops and round-notch rear sights. Now this isn't a perfect rule, because a few later frame guns formed part of the 1946 shipment. But most 1946 guns were round-top units.

 

[Texas Star]

Personally, I just don't buy the story that the gun was issued to a US Army Lt. in the 1920's. Not only would he not have been issued a gun with a Brazilian crest, the Brazilian guns hadn't even been made then! And I think officers still bought their own sidearms until WW II or not too long before.

Overall, this tale is a good example of why we're so often told to buy the gun, not the story behind it!

If the 11,000 guns cited were never delivered to Brazil (very doubtful), they'd have been sold commercially. How many such guns have you ever heard of being released on the US market?! (In that time frame.)

I think any Brazilian contract piece that is truly in really nice condition is a great prize.

BTW, we had a Brazilian member here awhile back who posted that the M-1917's were by WW II being issued largely to enlisted men authorized sidearms, as they were less complicated. The .45 autos bought by or provided via Lend-Lease to Brazil, tended to go to officers.

Keep in mind that Brazil declared for the Allies, and sent both infantry and air force personnel to fight alongside US and Commonwealth forces in the Italian campaign. The air units got P-47's, marked with Brazilian colors.

Brazilian members have posted photos of canvas webbing 1917 holsters in use in Italy, as well as pics of officers armed with Colt .45 autos. We don't seem to know if there were ever leather holsters issued for the revolvers. I believe the .45 autos were carried in US M-1916 holsters. If the pilots had shoulder holsters, the same was probably the case. (US- issue holsters)

If our Brazilian members see this, would the one who posted the pics of the P-47's please post them again? I think their national insignia looks really good. He should try to get some photos and see if he can sell an article about them to US aircraft magazines, like, Flight Journal.

I'd like to publicly thank David Wilson for his frequent excellent posts, modesty, and assistance to the members. He probably saw the same flaws in the OP's story that I did and was too polite to mention them. But something that obviously false upset me, and I felt compelled to debunk the myth, lest some dealer try it out on another unsuspecting buyer.

T-Star
P.S. The Ballaster-Molina guns were Argentine. If they were ever used by Brazil, I haven't seen a reference to it. However, Colt .45 autos were used by both Brazil and Argentina. As most of you know, the Argentines also made some there, on Colt machinery and under Colt license. These were in addition to the Ballester-Molina guns, which more nearly resemble Star autos, with more crude lines.

And I thought we all knew that the Brazilian .45's were replaced by Beretta 92's , with Beretta later selling their plant in Brazil to Taurus. Argentina replaced the .45 auto with Browning M-35 9mm's. Some were of FN make and others made at the Domingo Matheau arsenal in Rosario.

 

[peyton]

Texas Star, in my original post I stated that the 1917 was bought in the 20's, not the 1937. Still, bought the guns and not the stories. I just look forward to getting from from Kandahar so I can do some shooting!!

 

[Texas Star]

Texas Star, in my original post I stated that the 1917 was bought in the 20's, not the 1937. Still, bought the guns and not the stories. I just look forward to getting from from Kandahar so I can do some shooting!!

Sorry. I must have had trouble understanding which gun was meant. It's very late, and I'm too tired to be posting, I guess.

Obviously, I thought you meant the Brazilian 1917. To me, they're all 1917's, although some were made for Brazilian orders. I'm going to bed. Guess that I should have done that sooner.

 

[BUFF]

I have drug out my 1937 Brazilian, s/n 2017XX. Flat top frame with square sight notch. S/N is on the bottom flat of the butt of frame behind the swivel, but when mine is readable, the muzzle points right. The s/n is also on the rear face of the cylinder, on the flat on the bottom rear of the barrel, on the forward face of the ratchet/ejector and on the rear face of the crane's arm. The stocks are checkered walnut with large silver medallions and the right one is stamped with the gun's s/n.

Markings added since the gun left the factory include the digits 19458 stamped on the smooth backstrap of the grip frame, and then "CAI ST ALB VT", the U.S. importer's required stamp (Century Arms International, the largest weapons importer in the U.S.) Mine was likely one of the 25,000 guns shipped to Brazil in 1938.

While the gun has the normal numerous small scratches of indifferent storage and shipping and some pitting on the sides of the frame, the chambers and bore are very nice with sharp, clear rifling. The action times well. Should be a great but homely shooter.

Nice couple of .45's there, peyton!

 

[peyton]

I spent my lunch money on those two revolvers!! We have good forum members here. I recently purchased a holster for it as well that was listed in our accessories forum. I wonder what belt was used to carry the holster with? What I can not figure out is why is it backwards?? Or is it supposed to be for a left handed soldier?

 

[Ross3913]

It's a "butt-forward" design, like the old Cavalry holsters. It had something to do with holding the reigns of the horse in your right hand, or having your saber in your right hand, so you needed to be able to draw the gun with your left, and still be able to draw with the right. The butt-forward design allowed this. Whatever the reason, it was pretty much for the same reason they had done it before.

I've heard it said that the butt-forward were pre-WWI and used with the M1909, and pressed into service in WWI for the M1917. In WWI they "reversed" the design and made the same holster, but with the normal "butt-rear" configuration, and that remained from WWI and on for he M1917.

 

[murphydog]

Ross is correct, a right-handed shooter would do a cross-draw with their right hand and a "twist-draw" with the left if the right was otherwise occupied.

I believe the (then) standard M1910 pistol belt would have been used with it. These have a male snap for the three pocket half-moon clip pouch.

 

[Tuna1]

The situation is a little goofy. Several thousand frames and major parts were manufactured during the early '20s and stored either at the S&W plant or in the hands of the U.S. Army, under whose contract they had been produced in the first place. When S&W got the first Brazilian contract in 1937, it was filled from new production with new frame numbers. When the postwar contract loomed as a possibility, the factory had either rediscovered the old parts in a storeroom or reacquired them from the Army. Those frames, earlier in date but later in manufacture and distribution, made up the majority of the second Brazilian contract.

There's an interesting quick way to distinguish which Brazilians belong to which contract. The first contract guns are built on post-1926 frames, which have flattened tops and square-notch rear sights. The second contract Brazilians, mostly built with pre-1926 frames, have rounded tops and round-notch rear sights. Now this isn't a perfect rule, because a few later frame guns formed part of the 1946 shipment. But most 1946 guns were round-top units.

David, Thank you as it's now as clear as mud.(lol) So the early frames must have been WW1 production just never used as they have the US inspection stamps on them and they were not used for the 1937 production till 1946? And may or may not have been sent to Brazil then? Oh boy and I thought the US 30 carbine was confusing when I first started collecting them.

 

[Jack Flash]

Ross is correct, a right-handed shooter would do a cross-draw with their right hand and a "twist-draw" with the left if the right was otherwise occupied.

I believe the (then) standard M1910 pistol belt would have been used with it. These have a male snap for the three pocket half-moon clip pouch.

I think you reversed right and left in your post.