1938, K38 "Stub Barrel" cataloged to shoot .38-44 (HD) Ctgs ?

model3sw

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I have had this original letter in my possession for the past 25 years. Read it carefully.

Roy McHenry of the book by McHenry & Roper responds to a Mr. Eade of Evanston, Illinois on several topics including a "K-38 stub barrel revolver cataloged to shoot the .38-44 Cartridge". I'm presuming, as an author, he knows the difference between a .38 Special and a .38-44 (as in .38-44, Heavy Duty).

What is he referring to here ?

He also mentions Webley in England and another company in Newark, New Jersey making copies of the S&W M&P. Anyone have a clue as to the Newark, N.J manufactured S&W copy ?
 

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I don't know the answer to your question(s). I'm told a one time/long time employee of S&W, and an author in his own right once referred to the authors of the book mentioned thus: "Roper was an idiot, and McHenry was a drunk."

For my part, I'm inclined to think it's unlikely Roper was an idiot, and know little of McHenry; but some one or both of that pair is responsible for scads of misinformation studied intently (and unfortunately) by yours truly----for a loooooooooong time---------a looooooooooong time ago.

And I'm a little miffed at you for mentioning that book where I might stumble across it, and get upset all over again.

So there!!

Ralph Tremaine

And having now read the letter, it seems clear the drunk knew the difference between a .38 Special and the 38/44 hot rod version thereof.
 
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Presuming the "drunk" (according to you know who) is referring to the pre war 38 M&P snub nose and not a target sighted model, (which the K-38 normally refers), it should be easy enough to verify with members' help if it was ever cataloged for the 38-44.
 
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As Jim noted, the letter almost certainly refers to the .38 M & P that had been introduced with the 2" barrel. (Come to think of it, "stub" barrel makes more literal sense than "snub" for one of these, unless you intend to socially ignore people with your revolver. ;)).

Somewhere in my memory I recall a post here with an advertising flyer, stating the ".38/44 Hi-Speed" was approved for use in a particular model of revolver. The problem is I can't recall if it was referring to the .38 M & P or the Colt Detective Special :(. Someone here will probably find it.

Wonder what the gun experts of the '30s would have thought of 11 oz. revolvers shooting full .357s. "Uncomfortable baby" indeed!
 
I recall a discussion here with factory papers (catalog?) stating the .38-44 could be shot in all the S&W revolvers that chambered .38 Special. That referred to the K and N frame guns. Seems it was in response to Colts saying their frames could already handle the hotter round. It could have been in 1938 but I seem to recall it was after the war. Of course, I'm getting older and my recollection isn't as clear as it once was.
 
I'm guessing the comments about the Newark,NJ mfg revolver refer to the American Standard Tool Co copy of the S&W ,,,(the American Standard being a reincarnation of the Manhattan ?? the one involved in that Rollin White law suit ??)
I don't recall any W&S spur trigger revolver copy of a 'contemporary' S&W but it seems neither did these gents, only a guy in England knowing of such.

All these comments in the letter I think are connected to the paragraph about finding a 'nest' of spur trigger Rollin White infringements and the writers interest in a picture for his book of the 44 Military spur trigger the other guy has.

Just some writers thoughts out of order on the page.

Don't know about the 38-44 and a K-38.
 
As with anything else in history, the reader of text (or viewer of film) must transcend his mind to that time frame to be able to fully comprehend and understand what the intent of the writer or producer was ... but ... that is not often possible, mostly because few use the psyche of "time", albeit, a recent comment written is likely from someone who was alive an kicking in 1938.

Some people have trouble thinking or remembering that prior to 1996 there was no internet to have a wealth of data at the press of a button. The internet did not start to catch on like wild fire until well after 2000. How could that person try to imagine what 1938 was like ?

Then, as with anything else, you cannot believe everything you read ... especially if it is comments made in blogs or threads or specialty forums.

I read some of the mechanics and collectors auto Q&As ... it is amazing how many misinformed people, or people who heard something way back when, now become "professors" of statements that are completely false.

For example, the cylinders on the first airweights would blow out. Yes, that did happen but it was more likely to crack the frame on the underside where the barrel screws in, long before it would blow out the cylinder.

The model 39 with the bad extractors. Yes, true ... but not near as prevalent and re-tellers who have NO idea or have never experimented with a 39 or pre 39.

Again with the story of the 1913, .35 S&W Autos. They functioned fine with the correct ammo, yet, the story handed down was that they all malfunction. Well, they DO NOT (or rarely do) malfunction with the correct ammo.

In my teens, when becoming a scuba diver interested in wreck diving, I wrote letters requesting information on U.S. Naval losses during WWII and geographic location of each loss, to which receive a big fat envelope about a month later with exactly what I asked for ... or, at least, what they were "allowed" to release to the public. This, just a short example of what "research" entailed, not too long ago.

ALL of the above as a prelude to the following:

Putting myself back in 1938, I suppose there were not many opportunities to find or view a 1899 M&P target. I have owned two, I still have one, previously owned by Ed Cornett. Assuming McHenry actually means any M&P (calling them the 1899) there should have been plenty of target sighted 1905/4th changes, while the 1899 was, and still is, rather scarce with Factory Target sights. As is the 1902 (all changes) and the 1905, 1,2, & 3rd changes. Coming up to the 1905 / 4th change, there seems to be enough to go around, most likely from the sheer volume of all 1905/4th manufactured over the 3 or more decades it was manufactured.

Roy Mc Henry's eloquence in responding to this inquirer was less than what I would expect from an educated man but perhaps he was a bit more at ease responding to a sportsman than, by comparison, as if he were the John Carradine character (a statesman / politician) long winded, elaborate, oration in "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance".

He may have very possibly liked alcohol but unless you, personally, knew the man ... it is an unfair statement.

I also feel very confident that Walter Roper, was NOT an idiot (as mentioned by you know who). I perceive Walter Roper, perhaps as a Doc Emmett Brown in Back to the Future. Could have been eccentric, perhaps, but seemed to really know his shhhhtuff ! All letters I have written by Walter Roper present as a friendly, professional and without a doubt ... written as a dedicated Smith & Wesson employee. Even those he wrote while employed by Harrington and Richardson, he recommends, in a reply to an inquirer, the firearms the enquirer is seeking is best made by Smith & Wesson.

I call that man an absolute Gentleman regardless of who might say what (80 years later) to the contrary.

The combination of Roy McHenry and Walter Roper on their book seemed to be a very earnest attempt to put a assortment of S&W data "out there" that was not available, prior.

Perhaps, looking at it today, it pales in comparison to newer publications like Neal & Jinks, Roy's own History of S&W, and the most current S&W bible: Standards Catalog of S&W by Supica and Nahas.

Before SCSW, collectors mined through articles (hoping they were factual), then jumping through books from Rywell, to Roper, to Mc Henry and Roper, to Neal & Jinks, to Jinks ... just to accumulate a few "scraps" of data they hoped was factual. Roy Jinks "History" was the first S&W book I obtained and read.

I did not discover, until 1990, that post war guns were matte finish from the factory. I had previously suspected they were refinished. I had to find that out by myself just from the sheer number of S&W revolvers I encountered of that period in matte finish, figuring that cannot ALL be refinished and finally asking Ray Brazille (who I met in 1992) who concurred.

Collecting S&W is a learning experience. This forum is outstanding as it is a "collective" learning experience.

A new collector here, in 2018 on this forum,( if he or she is astute and studies well ) can learn more HERE in a few months than it took me over 40 years to learn.
 
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Assuming McHenry actually means any M&P (calling them the 1899) there should have been plenty of target sighted 1905/4th changes, while the 1899 was, and still is, rather scarce with Factory Target sights. As is the 1902 (all changes) and the 1905, 1,2, & 3rd changes.
Sal

With these comments, I guess I am more fortunate that I thought. Here are pictures of two guns that live in my safe. Neither is in great condition, but both are all original except for the stocks on the Model of 1902.
jp-ak-albums-k-frame-target-revolvers-picture11566-two-k-frame-targets-right.jpg

jp-ak-albums-k-frame-target-revolvers-picture11565-two-k-frame-targets-left.jpg


The .38 Target with the 6 1/2" barrel letters to April, 1908. My grandfather acquired it in the early 1930s as payment for some work he did on a Model A during the Great Depression. He passed away shortly before I left for 'Nam and my dad gave it to me after I got back.

The .32-20 Target with the 5" barrel letters to March, 1904. I purchased it from a fellow SWCA member in 2005. It was already wearing the post-1910 stocks.

I'm happy to own these two target revolvers and both of them will be passed on to my children when I'm gone.
 
Jack,

These are nice find in good or better condition. The 1899s were surely special order with Target sights. Same is stated for the entire line of 1899 M&P successors.

The changes from 1902 (original issue) through 1905 / 3rd change were such short periods of production, I have found them difficult to find and rather well coveted by the serious collectors.

Going on up to the 1905/4th change, in commercial production for approximately 30 years, many more of this model were produced than all others put together. It only reasons there were more Target variation 1905 / 4th change.

The 1905 / 4th change target is a sweet shooter and still relatively affordable. The first time I ever saw one was in Tulsa in 1995. A gent walked to my table with a 1905/4th change, target, in excellent condition and a box that was "not so nice", but numbered to the gun. I purchased it, on the spot, and searched for others in the show anywhere, not finding another, anywhere. Before then I did not know there were any M&P Target models so I began to research.

A few years prior I met up with Gary Garbrecht, who thoroughly impressed me. There was no turning back, now that Gary was dragging me to all corners of the Country to weekend shows everywhere.

Since we have the communications highway, nice, scarcer model S&Ws are showing up from every corner of the planet. Amazing !
 
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Roy McHenry of the book by McHenry & Roper responds to a Mr. Eade of Evanston, Illinois on several topics including a "K-38 stub barrel revolver cataloged to shoot the .38-44 Cartridge". I'm presuming, as an author, he knows the difference between a .38 Special and a .38-44 (as in .38-44, Heavy Duty).

What is he referring to here ?

"K-38" is an internal Factory designation for the 38 M&P.
K-200 is a similar designation you might recognize and perhaps find less confusing which designated the 38 British Service Revolvers in cal 38 S&W (cause it used a 200 gr bullet as standard and made a handy name).
KT-38 would be a K-38 Masterpiece in the Factory code.

N-44 is a fixed sight Military 44.
NT-44 is a 1950 Target.
NT-430 is a 44 Magnum.

Etc, etc, etc......
 
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