1955 Target question

[THE GUNSMITH]

I have a 45 acp 1955 target 5 screw in the S145XXX range. It has the W shaped mainspring, and a decent set of grips with a small chip. Gun in great shape except some idiot had applied matte blue finish.
Should I have it restored, or leave it alone? Would like to return it to original condition. Also, any idea on value?

 

[alwslate]

I have a 45 acp 1955 target 5 screw in the S145XXX range. It has the W shaped mainspring, and a decent set of grips with a small chip. Gun in great shape except some idiot had applied matte blue finish.
Should I have it restored, or leave it alone? Would like to return it to original condition. Also, any idea on value?

Do you mean it has been completely reblued in a matte blue
or touched up in places by a previous owner? Restored?
Returned to original condition? No gun that has been
refinished can ever be returned to it's original condition. You
could have it refinished to a polished blue like it originally
came with if you wanted. Value as is is hard to even guess
at without pics. As to what you should do, only you can decide
that. You want to keep it, sell it? Realize that the money
spent for a quality reblue will not be returned at the time of
sale. My personal opinion is that if it's in great shape and
you want to keep it then enjoy it as is.

 

[crsides]

In this time frame, the std finish on s&w revolvers was a satin blue. Bright blue on spl order and model 27's. Post a pic before you do anything with it.

Charlie

 

[THE GUNSMITH]

Not intending to sell, this gun has been totally sand blasted and finished matte blue. I have two other 1955's so I know how they look, just would like all to match.

 

[Hondo44]

Now "sand blasted" tells us the whole story.

I couldn't stand a gun like that in my collection and I'd want it to be original and match my others as well. I'd sell it, search for another, and even pay more rather than put my money down a hole in that gun.

 

[THE GUNSMITH]

I like the gun, shoots great. Think I'll restore it and maybe fit an extra 45 colt cylinder to it. Since it's not collectible, I can do it up the way I want.

 

[Hondo44]

In that case, Ford's your man for an excellent refinish in whatever degree of shine you want, just let him know:

The master Horace Ford in Florida
Ford's Guns - Custom Refinished Guns and Desert Eagle Sights!
Contact info: Fords Custom Gun Refinishing in Crystal River, Florida

 

[bigl1911]

If you like the gun I would restore it to an original level finish providing the gun overall hasn't been damaged and the letting and emblem are sharp.. I professional restored gun that was damaged is beautiful thing..

 

[BruceM]

Prices: Fords Custom Gun Refinishing in Crystal River, Florida

Hondo44, was the above link supposed to display a current price list? When I go to it, no prices are displayed.

Bruce

 

[Hondo44]

Bruce,

Yes it used to. Now it just takes you to his contact info. The one you posted is incorrect.

The top link still takes you to his website but it's an all new site and it no longer posts a price list.

 

[Art Doc]

"Fitting a Colt cylinder" isn't as easy as it sounds. The 45 Colt cylinder is too long to fit as the barrel on this model protrudes farther into the frame window.

 

[THE GUNSMITH]

It can be done, have done it before

 

[Art Doc]

The only way I've seen it done is to shorten the barrel to accommodate the longer 45 cylinder and then modify another 45 Colt cylinder into 45 ACP to fit the modified barrel dimensions. Seems like a lot of effort and expense. I just bought a 25-5 and called it a day.

Over the years I've had a couple of convertible guns but I soon lost my fascination with them.

 

[BUFF]

The better way to add a .45 Colt cylinder to a .45 ACP S&W is to start with a .38 Special or .357 cylinder and re-chamber it to .45 Colt. You can leave the barrel alone. The .38/.357 cylinder will be long enough to shoot just about all factory .45 Colt ammo.

 

[Hondo44]

Let's not under think this. Not all 45 Colt cylinders are too long.

The simplest swap is to start with a pre 25-5 (pre 1978) correct length 45 Colt cyl. Or a post 1978 long cylinder and face off the front of the cyl. to proper length. No barrel modifications needed.

Either is a lot easier than reaming a 357 cyl and you'd have factory 45 chambers/extractor star.

 

[Art Doc]

I didn't know a 357 cylinder was shorter than a 45 Colt. I have heard that any shortening of the cylinder makes using heavy bullets impossible. Not a problem if you only use lighter slugs but I would want any conversion to function properly with any ammo.

 

[Hondo44]

That would normally be a good practice.

But in the context of this discussion, post #6, about fitting a convertible 45 Colt cylinder to an ACP frame and still have the original ACP cyl works as well, the barrel forcing cone can not be shortened.

 

[BUFF]

SaxonPig, just about all factory .45 Colt ammo works just great in the shorter of the two .45 Colt cylinders, so there isn't a problem here.

The Model 25-3 125th Commemorative was the first production and cataloged .45 Colt from S&W. The cylinder used is about .08"-.10" shorter than the cylinder in the Model 25-5. S&W made more of these shorter cylinders than they did guns, and until they ran out of them, you could have their service department fit one to your 1950 or 1955 .45 ACP, to have a convertible. It was the same length cylinder that S&W used for any special order .45 Colt they made before 1977.

The only "ammo length problem" you may encounter is heavy bullet boutique stuff, reloads with some cast bullets (like Lyman's 454424 SWC) and... that's about it.

The standard factory .45 Colt ammunition with the 250-255 grain conical round nose lead bullets from Winchester and Remington, the Winchester 225 grain Silvertips, the Federal swaged SWC lead bullets and various 'cowboy' factory loads all fit the shorter S&W cylinders just fine.

 

[k22fan]

The original poster is a gunsmith who has already "done it before," so I expect he will add a .45 Colt cylinder his favorite way regardless of what we opine. That said, I would not spend the money to wind up with over size throats which all the shorter old .45 Colt cylinders have. Facing off a longer cylinder is a good way to get correct B/C gap with both cylinders. You might still have to work on yoke tube length or shims to get correct end shake with both cylinders.

I bought a 25-3 short cylinder .45 Colt about 1980. It had .458" throats. It only shot accurately with cast bullets from ~ 340 grain .45-70 rifle molds. As you know, cartridge OAL depends on nose shape and the location of grooves you can crimp into. At least for handloaders the shorter cylinders do not preclude all the heavier bullets.

 

[Skeetr57]

The same short cylinder problem exists with M27 ad M28 cylinders and long heavy bullets. The solution is to use a bullet with two crimp groves, or to crimp over the front of the first band just as reloaders have done for the past 75 or more years.

 

[BUFF]

I may be misunderstood here, but I lump N frame cylinders into 2 general lengths, the 'long' cylinder used in the .44 and 41 Magnums and the Model 25-5 and later guns, and then the 'short' cylinder used in the .38-44, .357 Magnum and .45 ACP guns.

Even then, the exact lengths will vary. In a M-29-2 'long' counterbored or recessed cylinder, the cylinder is longer (in the rear end) than in a M-29-3 'long' cylinder (or later gun) that isn't recessed. A M-27-2 'short' cylinder is longer because it is recessed than a M-27-3 'short cylinder that isn't, and again the extra length is in the rear.

The pre-1977 .45 Colt cylinders (special order and M-25-3) are 'short' as are the .45 ACP cylinders, but the ACP cylinders are even shorter (in the rear) because the headspace is greater than it is for the Colt cartridge.

So that's how I see it, basically 2 cylinder lengths, but they all differ at the rear end depending on whether they are recessed/counterbored, or for which cartridge they are chambered.

That's the long and short of it.

Let's see a show of hands of all those who understand this thoroughly.

 

[JSR III]

I just can't understand why anyone would want to put a Colt cylinder on a Smith & Wesson. That's like putting a Ford engine in a Chevy.

 

[Muley Gil]

I just can't understand why anyone would want to put a Colt cylinder on a Smith & Wesson. That's like putting a Ford engine in a Chevy.

Waaal, we'uns shore like to shoot those .45 Automatic Colt Pistol (ACP) cartridges in those 1950, 1955, M25, M26 and M625 revolvers that clutter up this revolver section of the Forum.

 

[Muley Gil]

The same short cylinder problem exists with M27 ad M28 cylinders and long heavy bullets. The solution is to use a bullet with two crimp groves, or to crimp over the front of the first band just as reloaders have done for the 75 or more years.

My first double action .45 Colt revolver was a 2nd model .455 S&W that had been rechambered. My bullet mould was a .452 Keith style SWC that threw a 262 grain long bullet. I crimped over the front band and those cartridges came right to the end of the cylinder.

 

[Hondo44]

Buff,

You got it right.

Short and long works fine.
Overall cyl length is confusing because the recess or non-recess affects the length, but the chamber lengths above the rim can be the same.

For bullet length considerations and the forcing cone length of the barrel I just compare the chamber length above the rim for .38/.357, 41, 44 and 45 Colt.


The cyl window and rim headspace is the same whether or not the chamber is recessed or not on the back end.

 

[ddixie884]

Just in case anyone cares, the 452423 will fit the shorter S&W cylinders when crimped in the crimp groove. The Lyman mold I have weighs 252 from wheel weight metal.

 

[BUFF]

If you meant Lyman 454424, mine won't. Maybe the mould has changed over the years. My bullets weigh about 260 grains with wheel weight metal, and are just a smidge too long. 1.627", just checked a W-W case so loaded.

I find that just too long to fit in my M-25-3 or my Bowen .38-44 conversion.

I'm still using some R-P bulk-packed 250 grain conical lead bullets, as well as the cast ones for my Colt SAA's and M-25-5 and others with longer cylinders. I have some swaged Speer 250 SWC's, too. I only aim to try to duplicate factory velocities, and these bullets work great for that, especially for fixed sight guns.

Just thinking about the future, I trimmed some W-W .45 Colt cases down until I could use them with the 454424 crimped normally and still chamber okay in the short cylinder guns. Worked okay. I don't see in my handloading notes how much I trimmed off, but it wasn't really a lot.

 

[k22fan]

I just can't understand why anyone would want to put a Colt cylinder on a Smith & Wesson. That's like putting a Ford engine in a Chevy.

Col. Copper told us larger diameter is better. .45 is as big as N frames go so it's gotta be the best. So far S&W has refused to chamber their own .45, the .45 Schofield leaving us to choose between Colt's revolver and auto cartridges. You can't hope none of us would choose the revolver cartridge.

If S&W did chamber .45 Schofield I'd be a buyer. It has more than enough powder capacity.

Now excuse me. I have to go oil my .44s and reassure them that they are still loved.

 

[Hondo44]

Now there's a good reason for a convertible 45 cyl. I'd chamber it for the 45 S&W Special (AKA 45 1906 Frankfort) an authentic cartridge chambering for the N frame very early on. Easy enough to make the brass.

 

[k22fan]

Now there's a good reason for a convertible 45 cyl. I'd chamber it for the 45 S&W Special (AKA 45 1906 Frankfort) an authentic cartridge chambering for the N frame very early on. Easy enough to make the brass.

I'm not saying they wouldn't get my money but I don't see any advantage over the Auto Rim.