1st Year of Production

[DARE]

What is the definition?
Is it 12 months since the 1st gun was shipped?
Is it whatever is left of the calendar year when the 1st gun was shipped?
The 1st 1955 .22/32 Airweight Kit Guns were shipped in November of 1954.
The 1st Combat Magnum was shipped December 15, 1955.
If 1st year guns are guns shipped in 1955, not very many 1st year Combat Magnums.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Since the SCSW tracks everything serial related from Jan to Dec, I've always thought of it as the production through December 31.

 

[Doc44]

The first regular production 44 Magnum and .357 Combat Magnum were completed on December 15, 1955. The first 44 Magnum was shipped on December 29, 1955 and the first .357 Combat Magnum was shipped on January 3, 1956. It is generally accepted that first year guns for both models date to 1956. For the 41 Magnum, the first guns shipped date to February 1964 and first year guns are generally considered as shipped in that year. First regular shipments of Ruger's Blackhawk 44 Magnum began in November 1956. First year guns are considered to have been shipped in that year.

Bill

 

[George_in_SD]

First year guns shipped within the first twelve months of production for the model.

 

[quinn]

First year vs first year of production. Same year as first or first 12 months. Are we getting into semantics?

 

[two-bit cowboy]

I disagree with George.

The first 19 Chiefs Specials shipped in 1950 -- the first production year.

Subsequent Chiefs shipped in the second year.

Let's not make it more complicated than the calendar year.

 

[StrawHat]

I am looking for a first year Model 1955 45 ACP Target revolver. To me that means shipped in 1955. And since they were introduced in March of that year, it is abbreviated by three months. What fun!

Kevin

 

[DARE]

I have heard the term 1st year of production. To me it is ambiguous. Could take it a couple of different ways. Why I asked. Thought maybe there was a definition. Maybe it is semantics.
Had not thought about 1st year gun. Several ways to look at this I guess.

 

[Fishinfool]

When I think a first year gun, I think of it as the calendar year the first gun of that model was shipped, no matter how late in the year, or how many made it out the factory door prior to Dec. 31st.

Larry

 

[Retired W4]

AAAARRRGGGG. I think I need one of those anti-anxiety drugs.

 

[JSR III]

As far as I am concerned, the first year of production contains 365 days. If you were to compare how many guns were produced in the first year compared to year 2 or 5 or 10 you would need 365 days to make a fair comparison.

If you are asking what year a model was first produced then if introduced on 12-31-1956 the answer would be 1956. If you are looking for the first year of production or (365 days) then that same model would be 12-31-1956 to 12-30-1957.

The confusion comes from not knowing the real intent of the question. Merely asking for first year could lead to either answer.

 

[BAM-BAM]

LOL

I think individuals define "first year" based on, what is most favorable to them, when the gun they own was shipped! Calendar year or first 12 months

 

[two-bit cowboy]

The problem I see with using the 365-day rule is simple.

How many models can anyone unequivocally say the exact first day of production and the number of models produced exactly 365 days (366 for leap year) later? Danged few.

I'll go back to my Chiefs Special example. Thanks to Dr. Jinks we know the first J-frame production date was October 24, 1950. The first three J-frames in .38 Special caliber were produced that day and serial number 6 was delivered to S&W President Carl Hellstrom on October 27, 1950.

Also thanks to Dr. Jinks we know S&W "completed as many as 112 Chiefs" in 1950, but we don't know most of those serial numbers, and only 19 of them shipped that year.

How many Chiefs had been completed by October 23, 1951, and what were their serial numbers?

It's anyone's guess, and we may never know.

I heartily agree with BAM-BAM that the guy talking is the one who makes the claim based on his personal collection. I see far too many sellers who claim their revolver is a "first year gun," but they truly have no way to prove that claim.

I'm proud to own Chiefs Specials serial numbered 72 and 99. Both shipped in 1951 within the first 365 days of J-frame production, and I have no way to know if they were produced in 1950 or 1951. I have no ego to feed -- they are "second year guns."

 

[Engine49guy]

Having OCD I used to torture myself with such ponderings.
IMO while having common nonmenclature is important there are really no hard written rules with this hobby just common understandings.
While it would have made the hobby alot easier for us today if the factory built then shipped guns in numerical order and tracked those things it didn't happen that way.
Most covit low serial numbers but the accepted rule is except for serial 001, 002, 003 etc which sometimes went to VIP's
SW firearms were generally built in batches on rolling carts then disassembled blued then reassembled inspected and stored in the "vault".
Sometimes lower serial guns were perhaps harder to access as the boxes were removed from the vault and so shipped leter than higher serial guns as we frequently see low serial guns the end up shipping much later.

Quite often a new model was introduced and had a cosmetic change after a year making them unique as the first "run" I have observed more than a few instances where batches of a new design were built but only a few snuck out before the factory shut down for the holidays such as the post war K22 and Combat Magnum.
I have a hard time calling a K22 a that shipped in January 47 a second year gun because two or three snuck out before New Years day while guns made along side them spent New Years eve in the vault waiting for the workers to come back and start shipping them.
On a side note while I can see the lowest serial gun sometimes were delivered to a VIP for Christmas where it gets weird is when higher serial guns shipped lets say Dec of 1956 then lower serial guns ship a few months into 1957.
Some guys chase low serials while some chase earlier ship dates, which one is more desirable is IMO up to you.
I have a friend that has been chasing a revolver with his AHP monogram for years.

 

[BAM-BAM]

How about "Birth Year" guns.

Really have to have a letter..... not just the "data ranges' in The SCS&W

 

[Walter Rego]

Does it really matter ? If you had two identical condition very early guns, say a Combat Magnum or a .44 Magnum, would there be any appreciable difference in value if one shipped the first calendar year and the other shipped within the first 12 months ? I think not.

 

[two-bit cowboy]

... there are really no hard written rules....

Engine49guy nailed the jell-o to the wall with this statement.

Everything in this thread is opinion, that's all.

Does it really matter? ... would there be any appreciable difference in value if one shipped the first calendar year and the other shipped within the first 12 months ? I think not.

I wish you had been the guy who sold Chiefs Special serial number 72, shipped in March 1951, to me.

The same seller wanted double the price for a Chiefs Special with a serial number less than 20 shipped in December 1950.

Does it really matter?

Only to the seller and the buyer.

 

[kscharlie]

What is the definition of "production"? According to Merriam-Webster the definition is
"2 a: the act or process of producing
b: the creation of utility
especially : the making of goods available for use"
We all know that S&W (with rare exceptions) did not keep records of when a gun was actually produced, only when guns were shipped. We also know that S&W did not ship in serial number order. Therefore, IMO, it is an exercise in futility to attempt to ascertain if a given gun is or is not a "first year production", because we flat don't know with any degree of certainty. If it was shipped during the first 365 days of manufacture, it would likely qualify. Other than that, all bets are off.

Case in point, I have a Model of 1955 that, according to Roy Jinks, was "manufactured in 1955" but was not assembled and shipped until March 1959. So, based on the definition of "production", it meets the criteria of a first year revolver. Based on shipping date, it obviously does not. An exercise in futility.

Roy also offered a good bit of wisdom:
"Charlie, collectors put too much importance in serial numbers and forget that these are manufactured products and that serial numbers to Smith & Wesson are only important for the legal requirements of the laws."

Often times, the same can be said for "birth year" guns. If it was shipped the same year as we were born, we call it a birth year gun. But if my gun was made in 1955 and not shipped until 1959, which year did I have to be born to call it a birth year gun?

It's all enough to make my head spin. To me, it makes little difference. But that is one of the things that makes our hobby so interesting and entertaining.

 

[StrawHat]

The only real date is the shipping date. You then know when it shipped but rarely when it was built. Taking the Model 1955, if it shipped in 1955, you know when it was built. If it shipped in February of 1956, you know when it shipped but not when it was built.

Were models always built in sequence? Unfortunately, no. Often ranges of serial numbers were built out of sequence. Witness the Model 1917. Many thousands were built after WWII but on frames manufactured in 1917 and 1918.

It falls to the searcher to declare his/her parameters and conduct the search according to those guidelines.

Unless and until, the Historical Society or Dr Jinks weighs in with an opinion. Then, at least we will have clearer guidance.

Kevin

 

[JSR III]

The other point that is lost here is that we don't normally know exactly when a gun was produced or on what day. Dates given in the SWCA ship date section and letters from Dr. Jinks and his assistant Don Mundell are shipping dates not manufacture dates. Dr. Cornett has I believe some of the floor foreman's production logs that record the serial numbers of certain guns produced on certain days however, that information is not widely available.

Since the workers, IIRC, were paid by the piece, it was necessary for the floor foremen to keep such records so that the workers could be paid each week. However, all of the other dates, including those in the SC of S&W are based on shipping dates and not manufacture dates. So even the "birth year" guns could be wrong if the gun happened to be held over for a year or more in the vault and shipped during your birth year, month or day but was actually built 2 years earlier.

Again as Dr, Jinks has expressed many times, collectors love things all tied up with pretty little red bows and that is just not how a gun company or any other manufacturer works. They are in the business to build a product, sell the product and get it out the door. If gun 100 happens to be shipped before gun 5 its all the same to them. Money in the till. $$$

**I see a few of us were responding at the same time but the messages are similar.