22 WMR defense?

[HardToHandle]

If you are thinking about "10 shots quickly" you better have a damn good defense in court to convince an Oprah watching jury why you shot him in the back. He will be turning faster than you can turn your finger off.

Certainly there are many variables in every situation, but the Over-shooting and back-shooting myths are just that... fables.

It is 2020, not 1950. There is well-accepted research that has been used repeatedly in various courts:

"On average, additional findings show, officers may "reasonably" fire 6 rounds or more into suspects who initially are standing and then begin falling and who, in fact, may already be mortally wounded. And that's 6 rounds per officer involved in the confrontation....

falling assailant may invite continued gunfire because a collapse or crumple can be an ambiguous movement. Falling from incapacitating wounds cannot always be distinguished from a deliberate tactical maneuver of someone who has decided to go to ground to avoid being shot or to assume a less exposed position while returning or preparing to return gunfire..."

"Excessive" Shots And Falling Assailants: A Fresh Look At OIS Subtleties | Force Science Institute

 

[CZU]

I got to shoot a CZ 512 semi auto in 22 WMR recently.

And I like CZ too. I wish the receiver was steel.

Yeah, when everybody was waiting with baited breath for the CZ 512 it is finally released and is almost a spittin' image of the Daisy Powerline. I was hoping for an updated version of the CZ 511 or something new built of steel and walnut. CZ lost me on the 512.

If you want a 22 mag with a steel receiver you might look around for a Brno 611.

 

[Mule Packer]

I love the .22 magnum cartridge!! But, when push comes to shove, it was developed primarily as a rifle cartridge, and it really shines in that capacity.

Most of the .22 magnum ammunition on the market today is designed to be shot out of a rifle-length barrel, although it can be safely shot out of a handgun. That being said, however, the Speer Gold Dot .22 magnum ammunition is loaded with a propellant that is designed to have maximum combustion out of a pistol-length barrel.

Paul Harrell gives it a good demonstration on one of his YouTube videos.

I don't have a .22 magnum in semi-automatic, but my Winchester 9422 in .22 magnum can certainly do plenty of damage on anything from ground squirrels to coyotes and I would never hesitate to use it as a self-defense weapon. Same goes for my Ruger Single Six.

 

[beagleye]

Yeah, when everybody was waiting with baited breath for the CZ 512 it is finally released and is almost a spittin' image of the Daisy Powerline. I was hoping for an updated version of the CZ 511 or something new built of steel and walnut. CZ lost me on the 512.

If you want a 22 mag with a steel receiver you might look around for a Brno 611.

Wow that is one lovely gun. I would certainly love to have one of those. It would fit in with my other BRNOs- I have a model 3, ZKW 465, Model 22F (7x57), and a ZKK 600 in 7x57. I always have an eye out for a ZG47. Now you got eyeballing a 611! And would love a 581(I had one but let it slip away). The 611s are pricey for a rimfire, but not too common and beautiful.

Does yours work with several types of ammo? And I have heard that there is a pre post split, somewhere in the production, not sure what that's about? Are the older ones better, how does one sort the difference. Also how easy is it to find as spare magazine or two? Thanks all for the kind and helpful imput.

 

[wetdog1911]

Wow that is one lovely gun. I would certainly love to have one of those. It would fit in with my other BRNOs- I have a model 3, ZKW 465, Model 22F (7x57), and a ZKK 600 in 7x57. I always have an eye out for a ZG47. Now you got eyeballing a 611! And would love a 581(I had one but let it slip away). The 611s are pricey for a rimfire, but not too common and beautiful.

Does yours work with several types of ammo? And I have heard that there is a pre post split, somewhere in the production, not sure what that's about? Are the older ones better, how does one sort the difference. Also how easy is it to find as spare magazine or two? Thanks all for the kind and helpful imput.

My feeling is, a polymer, or part polymer gun is simply not an heirloom gun. YMMV

Don't have a BRNO, but do have a CZ452 from before they ended production of that model. After nearly a decade, I'm still amazed at so much quality for so small a cost. From what I remember, BRNO was from the same factory, or even just a different brand of the CZ line?

Seem to recall CZs being scarce in Oz and BRNOs common as dirt with the reverse in the U.S., with BRNOs being scarce, but both having nearly identical models. But, memory is sketchy.

You have BRNOs, so you know the quality. *I* would give a hard pass on the CZ512 and begin the search for the BRNO611.

Do the magazines on the 512 and 611 interchange like the CZ and BRNO .22lr bolt guns did? The polymer mag on my 452 works great, but got a couple of steel mags simply because my kid should still be shooting the 452 long after I'm gone and steel will last. Plus, I'm a big beliver in spare mags.

Good luck on your search, it's a beautiful rifle.

Rob

 

[CZU]

Wow that is one lovely gun. I would certainly love to have one of those.

They are, aren't they? The one pictured is my shooter, I have another that is NIB. I collected serial numbers on these for a few years and came to the conclusion that there were only about 12K made. Pretty low number for world wide distribution.

It would fit in with my other BRNOs- I have a model 3, ZKW 465, Model 22F (7x57), and a ZKK 600 in 7x57. I always have an eye out for a ZG47. Now you got eyeballing a 611! And would love a 581(I had one but let it slip away). The 611s are pricey for a rimfire, but not too common and beautiful.

Glad to see someone else that likes the BRNOs, I just don't see enough of them around here. I have a couple 1's, a 2, TGF, a ZKW 465 and others. The 465 is also a beautiful gun. It was one of those have to haves. Keep your eyes peeled for a CZ511, they are just about an exact copy of the 581.

Does yours work with several types of ammo? And I have heard that there is a pre post split, somewhere in the production, not sure what that's about? Are the older ones better, how does one sort the difference. Also how easy is it to find as spare magazine or two? Thanks all for the kind and helpful imput.

I have run a few hundred rounds of CCI and Winchester and haven't had any issues. I have read where others have tried just about any 22 mag that was available and had 0 problems. These are very reliable rifles, an importer that brought in about 7K never had any returns for warranty work. As to the pre-post split that you mention, there is a quality difference. It is easily identified, just avoid any that are marked 611A. The main differences are hump stock vs. straight, rear sight boss machined vs. sweated, front sight soldered vs. glued and some subtle differences in the machining of the receiver. These were built in the early 2000's but only for a couple years. Look for one that is dated 93,94,95,96. I never saw any when I was collecting serial numbers that were built in 97 or 98 but collect some from 99. I would still stick with the first 4 years though. As to magazines they are somewhat expensive but are out there.

 

[CZU]

Do the magazines on the 512 and 611 interchange like the CZ and BRNO .22lr bolt guns did?

Good luck on your search, it's a beautiful rifle.Rob

Unfortunately the 512 mags do not interchange with the 611 mags. Somewhat funny though, CZ-USA was selling 611 mags for a short period. This coming from a company that would tell people that they didn't have anything to do with the former BRNO.

 

[Jessie]

I like the .22 mag. It works pretty good, but if I need a long gun for any kind of defense, which I think you're talking about,it's going to be a centerfire rifle caliber.
That's just my preference.

 

[beagleye]

They are, aren't they? The one pictured is my shooter, I have another that is NIB. I collected serial numbers on these for a few years and came to the conclusion that there were only about 12K made. Pretty low number for world wide distribution.



Glad to see someone else that likes the BRNOs, I just don't see enough of them around here. I have a couple 1's, a 2, TGF, a ZKW 465 and others. The 465 is also a beautiful gun. It was one of those have to haves. Keep your eyes peeled for a CZ511, they are just about an exact copy of the 581.



I have run a few hundred rounds of CCI and Winchester and haven't had any issues. I have read where others have tried just about any 22 mag that was available and had 0 problems. These are very reliable rifles, an importer that brought in about 7K never had any returns for warranty work. As to the pre-post split that you mention, there is a quality difference. It is easily identified, just avoid any that are marked 611A. The main differences are hump stock vs. straight, rear sight boss machined vs. sweated, front sight soldered vs. glued and some subtle differences in the machining of the receiver. These were built in the early 2000's but only for a couple years. Look for one that is dated 93,94,95,96. I never saw any when I was collecting serial numbers that were built in 97 or 98 but collect some from 99. I would still stick with the first 4 years though. As to magazines they are somewhat expensive but are out there.

Thanks for all this excellent info. I am sold. I am looking for a 611.

 

[CZU]

Good luck on your search, be sure and post pics when you get one.

 

[sigp220.45]

I worked violent crime on Indian reservations in the wild west for 17 of my 25 years in the FBI. I was at some Indian Country (that's the legal term in the federal statutes) conference with a bunch of other SAs from other reservations. We got to talking about our murders and the weapons used.

Most of our murders were stabbings or beatings but we had several hundred shootings (fatal and non-fatal) between us. The standard-issue murder gun on the rez is the .22 repeating rifle, most often a Marlin Model 60 or a Ruger 10/22 but others as well. I realized I had never had a shooting with a .22 repeating rifle that wasn't a fatality. The closest I had to a non-fatal was a case where a guy drove by a bar and shot through the front windows and door. A customer at the bar was putting a shot glass to his lips when it exploded and cut his face. Somehow the bullet didn't hit his hand at all.

Everything else - dead there or at the hospital later. Some of the other guys may have had a non-fatal one, but the general consensus was that if someone started in on you with a .22 rifle your time had come.

Of course the reason .22 rifles were used was because that was what they had. They were familiar with the gun, there's no recoil, and they just kept shooting until Cousin Fred had breathed his last.

I think a .22 WMR repeater would be just as effective.

I'm not advocating just walking around with a rifle on your shoulder, but for a defense need where a long gun is appropriate, you could do a whole lot worse than a .22 rifle.

 

[Big Cholla]

As a self defense instructor and student, I became aware of a fact oft ignored. All cartridges can be fatal to the human body given the optimum placement. And, the human body can absorb a fatal first shot but still be able to function long enough to return fire. A deciding factor in that ability is 'subsequent shots'. A person using any firearm and going into a serious encounter expecting a one shot stop is looking for a real hurting. The body reacts to each and every blow individually. Subsequent shots can multiply that original blow (shot) to the point the body is quickly incapable of responding.

Any cartridge/handgun/rifle/shotgun will do.......but follow up shots must be quick and accurate to insure the results one hopes.

 

[beagleye]

As a self defense instructor and student, I became aware of a fact oft ignored. All cartridges can be fatal to the human body given the optimum placement. And, the human body can absorb a fatal first shot but still be able to function long enough to return fire. A deciding factor in that ability is 'subsequent shots'. A person using any firearm and going into a serious encounter expecting a one shot stop is looking for a real hurting. The body reacts to each and every blow individually. Subsequent shots can multiply that original blow (shot) to the point the body is quickly incapable of responding.

Any cartridge/handgun/rifle/shotgun will do.......but follow up shots must be quick and accurate to insure the results one hopes.

Thank you for that excellent analysis and reminder. But that point is actually what I thin k I was trying to get at and what amazed me with shooting the 512, you could just keep shooting and hitting and shooting and hitting, and stay right on target. I came away thinking that would be really hard to withstand and a really good way to defend ones self. After about the third hit in the kill zone in the first 2 seconds, I think the situation would be diffused.

You could say, yes but why not grab a 9mm or 357 or whatever, and the answer I have is you can't keep delivering those shoots at that speed and stay right ON TARGET.

Found these mags ( MAG CZ 611 5RD 22WMR ), bought one, looks like I am committed to a 611. I will post pics. I am not going to drag my feet.

Hit the buy it now. I am telling the wifey y'all talked me into it.- Brno Zkm 611 Semi-Auto Rifle .22 WMR - Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com : 851191234

 

[bulletslap]

A shirt tail relative of mine, an old West Texas Rancher that had about 20 producing oil wells on his place, and could have bought any rifle made; carried a 22 WMR Taurus copy of the old Winchester 62 pump and killed everything from Badgers to Wild Hogs with it. Benny was one of the best shots on running game I ever saw. He really liked the 22 WMR, he carried a Ruger Single Six in 22 WMR also.

 

[Watchdog]

I had a friend accidentally shot himself in the foot with a .22 WMR...jacketed hollow point no less, from an Old Model Ruger Single-Six with a 9.5-inch barrel.

Trust me, you do not want to get shot with one of those, no matter what kind of bullet it is or what kind of gun it's fired from.

I was sitting right next to him when he did it. What a mess. Not fun. Not fun at all.

I would have little hesitation in carrying a revolver chambered for that round. Even if from a snubby that knocks a couple hundred feet off the FPS speed, it's a potent little devil. Six fast rounds with no recoil to speak of will have an effect. Shoot, the noise the thing makes would probably scare somebody into thinking he'd been shot with something bigger.

 

[RoyM52]

I picked up a 351 PD a couple of days ago. Very impressive little gun.

I figured that I would see what it does in water penetration with the Speer short barrel 40 grain rounds. {looking for expansion mushroom}

filled a 64 oz plastic bottle with water, put it on it's side in the snow and fired a round directly into the center of the bottom.

Guess I have to gather some more water containers...or else build a grocery sack box that will hold at least two bags full of water.....bullet went right thru the bottle and took the cap with it. Gone.... lighter than anything I own for carry and 7 rounds of a wicked little bullet, with shooting muffs on, sounds like shooting any old 22. {does go thru a box of ammo quick, no recoil} I'm impressed

The only J frame gun that I haven't needed to change the grips on, because of the size of my hands and the recoil slamming the trigger guard into my middle finger.{lovin' it}

 

[fatcat3]

One question is when would I grab a rifle, instead of a handgun for defense,

Every time I can

 

[CZU]

Found these mags ( MAG CZ 611 5RD 22WMR ), bought one, looks like I am committed to a 611. I will post pics. I am not going to drag my feet.

Hit the buy it now. I am telling the wifey y'all talked me into it.- Brno Zkm 611 Semi-Auto Rifle .22 WMR - Semi Auto Rifles at GunBroker.com : 851191234

Looks like you got a good one, even got the box. I like being the enabler for once. Now you will have to be on the lookout for some 10 round mags. CZ-USA did have those at one time but it appears they are long gone. The folks on GB that have them for sale are dreamin'..

 

[AJ]

I picked up a 351 PD a couple of days ago. Very impressive little gun.

I figured that I would see what it does in water penetration with the Speer short barrel 40 grain rounds. {looking for expansion mushroom}

filled a 64 oz plastic bottle with water, put it on it's side in the snow and fired a round directly into the center of the bottom.

Guess I have to gather some more water containers...or else build a grocery sack box that will hold at least two bags full of water.....bullet went right thru the bottle and took the cap with it. Gone.... lighter than anything I own for carry and 7 rounds of a wicked little bullet, with shooting muffs on, sounds like shooting any old 22. {does go thru a box of ammo quick, no recoil} I'm impressed

The only J frame gun that I haven't needed to change the grips on, because of the size of my hands and the recoil slamming the trigger guard into my middle finger.{lovin' it}

A friend gave me a 351C last week. He thinks I'll carry it more than I do my 342Ti. We will see........

 

[Big Cholla]

A Truism

Every time I can

Clint Smith is known for oft saying, "Your handgun is what you use to fight your way back to where you left your rifle!"

I totally agree with him.