22LR Mod 17 issues

[Flyingfool]

I have an older Model 17 no dash, 6” that was my grandfathers that I recently inherited after my Uncles passing. I love the gun. It has what appears to be a wide trigger or at least a set screw attachment to the trigger the rigger is ribbed and wider than stock. Also the hammer spur seems wide and case hardened.

The serial number is K3476XX so someone might be able to tell me the year of manufacture. I recall seeing this as a young spud and I’m now over half century mark. My best guess as to age would be early to mid-1960’s vintage. But that is a complete guess.

Anyhow I recently went to the range and along with several other guns, put about 150 rounds through it. One thing I noticed is that the ammo had to be fairly firmly pushed into each chamber. They did not just “drop in”. Is this generally just leading up or a cleaning issue? I do not notice any visible indication that the chamber is anything but perfectly clean, as I cleaned it thoroughly with Hoppes #9 and lightly oiled with Hoppe’s gun oil. Looks clean and shiny in the chambers. What might be the best way to clean and/or polish the inside of the chambers to ensure fully clean and allow for easier fitting of the ammo?

The main Issue I am writing about has to do with a “hitch” in the action in the double action mode. I shot about 25 to 50 rounds I shot in double action mode. And I seemed to have detected that occasionally, I do not get a smooth trigger pull. Rather, the trigger begins normal rearward movement, and then seems to come to a point that increases, I would say fairly significant resistance. This requires me to pull significantly harder but will allow to pull and fire. Reaching this limit and pulling single action seems to have no noticeable additional resistance. I will admit that my hands/fingers are not particularly strong. So that in double action, with my trigger finger, the resistance is such that it nearly stops, without what I feel is unnecessary resistance to continue to fire.

When I say “occasionally” I would estimate that on every 6-round cylinder full, I will encounter this situation once. I can’t recall encountering more than once. I have NOT traced this down as to which chamber or cylinder position this resistance occurs to determine if it is consistent to the exact cylinder position. Or if it is random.

Would anyone have a clue what the cause might be for this periodic condition? Is there something visual that I can check, or take a picture of that would help determine the cause? Is this some sort of “timing” issue? If so, how or who is the best person to fix a timing issue? (yes I know a gun smith, but not all gun smiths are the same or known for quality work on revolvers, especially these days).

I have NO idea if my grandfather did himself, or had any trigger work or spring work done on this gun. Since I know this gun has sat idle for many years (probably nearly 20 years) as it sat in my Uncles gun safe (he is who I inherited it from), I was wondering if I should simply order a complete new set of springs for this gun. So as to at least start from a known square one. Is this a reasonable idea? If so where is the best source and best price for a complete spring set for this specific model. I would prefer to have a complete set from one source, rather than ordering 5 springs from 4 sources. So any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

I really like this beautiful gun and want to keep it in the family. And of course, I want to make sure that it is in great working order.

I have installed a Apex duty carry kit in my wife’s model 642. So I am not afraid to remove the side plate, clean and lube internally and install springs. But any “smithing” beyond that would probably have to be farmed out to a known quality smith.

 

[KalamazooKid]

There will be many more knowledgeable replies, but the cylinders with just about any 22 revolver will get sticky. You have what is called a target hammer and trigger - wider and much preferred by most.

Im not sure what the issue might be with the DA trigger pull, but someone will provide some expertise.

I have a vintage 1960 M17 that I love, one of my favorites. Enjoy yours!

 

[lrrifleman]

The easy answer first, the leading provider of action springs is Wolffe!

Your K22 sounds like it has both the target trigger and target hammer. If equipped with them, there is a good possibility that it also has target stocks (hence, 3Ts). Being a target revolver, target revolvers were typically fired single action during the hey day of precision pistol shooting, and revolvers dominated the firing line. The design of the target trigger,in my experience, does not lend itself to double action shooting! (You can fire 5 rounds rapid fire single action accurately in under ten seconds!)

Considering how long it has sat idle, give strong consideration to cleaning the action before you start replacing springs and other parts!

I have owned my K22 for forty years, I was the original owner. I have never had 22s just drop into their chambers ... they always required a little thumb pressure for the last quarter inch.

 

[k22fan]

It sounds like all your difficulties are from not cleaning as often as that specific K-22 needs with the specific lot of cartridges you are firing. K-22s chambers are deliberately on the small side of industry tolerance for best accuracy and at best .22 LR is dirty stuff. Since pulling the trigger does not provide as much mechanical advantage as cocking the hammer K-22s have to kept cleaner for double action shooting than for single action shooting.

Most likely the drag in the double action is from fouling on the front of the cylinder dragging on the back of the barrel. I would check to see that barrel cylinder gap is not under 0.004" with the cylinder held forward. If it is then look into correcting end shake. The cylinder can be held back by stretching the yoke tube which is simple and fast for a gunsmith that has the tools. Brownell's sell the tools. Only shorten the rear of the barrel if there is no perceptible forward and back movement of the cylinder.

Start with trying different brands or even different lots of cartridges and cleaning at what ever frequency is required to eliminate double action drag.

I do not change factory springs for no reason, even old springs.

 

[murphydog]

The serial number puts it as a late 1958 production gun, so it may have been sold at that time to early 1959.

As noted above, the charge holes may be slightly on the undersized end of standard, and several members here have used a SAAMI spec "finishing reamer" to take a slight amount of metal out of them to allow rounds to easily seat. However, it is easy to try several brands of ammo to see if one works before doing this. Happy shooting!

 

[rct269]

You noted the gun sat unused for a good long time---and that you cleaned it prior to use---chambers/bore at least. So far, so good. You made no mention of the ammunition, so I'll talk about that. I have (had) some pretty old ammo---don't know how old---maybe 20+ years. It's been thrown out, and I don't recall the brand---probably Remington (standard velocity), but it doesn't make any difference.

What (might) make a difference is whether or not it's gone through a change---oxidation I reckon. Whatever it was, the black/dark gray bullets turned mostly white---and they didn't go into the chambers with difficulty------they didn't go in at all.(!!)

(For what it's worth, I have a bunch of Remington Target Standard Velocity and some Aguila SE SUPER EXTRA (Subsonic) probably as old or older, and it's all squeaky clean---no sign of any oxidation or anything else.)

Ralph Tremaine

I note mention of use of a finishing reamer up above. A few words about altering the dimensions of a S&W K frame .22 Long Rifle chamber---proceed at your own risk. S&W has had a bee in their bonnet for a long time about throat length in .22 Long Rifle revolver chambers-----being particularly fond of their I frame revolver (22/32) for a longer time---and not being inclined to fix anything that wasn't broken----or at least wasn't broken as far as they were concerned. At the point in time when they finally came out with a K frame .22 Long Rifle revolver, it was the product of countless hours of seeking perfection------and more of those hours followed through the years. Like I said, proceed at your own risk.

 

[Krogen]

The K-22 is well known for having tight chambers. Often, the fired cases are reluctant to extract. Unfired rounds might require some force to insert as you noticed.

I suggest you step lightly. Do the easy stuff before reaming the charge holes or changing springs.

1) Clean the charge holes meticulously with a 25 caliber bore brush. Hoppes No. 9 is fine.

2) Be sure there's a tiny bit of lube where the cylinder contacts the recoil shield.

3) Make sure your strain screw is snugged tight. If loosened, it can cause some binding in the trigger stroke.

4) Does the cylinder turn freely on the yoke when opened? If not, then the yoke/cylinder needs some cleaning or lube.

5) Try some different ammo. Mine shoots best with standard velocity ammo with uncoated lead bullets. But it gets sticky after just a few cylinders. If I use ammo with copper-washed bullets, there's no stickiness, but it doesn't shoot as accurately.

If you search for sticky k-22 you'll find that a lot of folks have had the headaches you're having.

Good luck!

 

[george_lehr]

Shooting a K22 is fun and very rewarding with great accuracy. But 22 ammo is dirty and one thing to beware of is that dirt can get behind the extractor star when cartridges are extracted. When the cylinder is swung out, it's best to point the muzzle straight up to extract the cartridges to minimize the chance of dirt getting under the star. If a tiny bit of dirt does get under the star, it can prevent a new cartridge from fully seating in the chamber and thereby cause the cartridge to drag on the recoil shield. I keep a small brush in my range bag to dust the back of the extractor star if/when that happens.
George

 

[Peak53]

You are receiving good advice above. I would certainly start with an extra special cleaning. First, try using a good bronze bore brush soaked in Hoppes in the charge holes. Somewhat vigorously. You will be removing mostly carbon that can get very hard and shiny. I have found that keeping that brush handy at the range is important, giving a quick brush every few cylinders. Second, as pointed out, there could be a number of causes of the rough DA pull. If there is no appreciable carbon or lead build up on the front of the cylinder impeding its free action, then a detailed cleaning under the side plate is called for. Old, thickened oil could be responsible. It those things don't clear it up, then you will be looking for a gunsmith.

 

[Johnnu2]

It appears to me that in your description of the gun: " It has what appears to be a wide trigger or at least a set screw attachment to the trigger the rigger is ribbed and wider than stock." you may be describing one of the old time trigger shoe attachments with a set screw (or two) on one side of that attaches it to the trigger. I would REMOVE this trigger shoe and do all of the above-mentioned cleaning as well. I have a feeling that this trigger SHOE is hampering your trigger's movement in some way (just a guess, but worth a try). J.

 

[D Brown]

I have an older Model 17 no dash, 6” that was my grandfathers that I recently inherited after my Uncles passing. I love the gun. It has what appears to be a wide trigger or at least a set screw attachment to the trigger the rigger is ribbed and wider than stock. Also the hammer spur seems wide and case hardened.

The serial number is K3476XX so someone might be able to tell me the year of manufacture. I recall seeing this as a young spud and I’m now over half century mark. My best guess as to age would be early to mid-1960’s vintage. But that is a complete guess.

Anyhow I recently went to the range and along with several other guns, put about 150 rounds through it. One thing I noticed is that the ammo had to be fairly firmly pushed into each chamber. They did not just “drop in”. Is this generally just leading up or a cleaning issue? I do not notice any visible indication that the chamber is anything but perfectly clean, as I cleaned it thoroughly with Hoppes #9 and lightly oiled with Hoppe’s gun oil. Looks clean and shiny in the chambers. What might be the best way to clean and/or polish the inside of the chambers to ensure fully clean and allow for easier fitting of the ammo?

The main Issue I am writing about has to do with a “hitch” in the action in the double action mode. I shot about 25 to 50 rounds I shot in double action mode. And I seemed to have detected that occasionally, I do not get a smooth trigger pull. Rather, the trigger begins normal rearward movement, and then seems to come to a point that increases, I would say fairly significant resistance. This requires me to pull significantly harder but will allow to pull and fire. Reaching this limit and pulling single action seems to have no noticeable additional resistance. I will admit that my hands/fingers are not particularly strong. So that in double action, with my trigger finger, the resistance is such that it nearly stops, without what I feel is unnecessary resistance to continue to fire.

When I say “occasionally” I would estimate that on every 6-round cylinder full, I will encounter this situation once. I can’t recall encountering more than once. I have NOT traced this down as to which chamber or cylinder position this resistance occurs to determine if it is consistent to the exact cylinder position. Or if it is random.

Would anyone have a clue what the cause might be for this periodic condition? Is there something visual that I can check, or take a picture of that would help determine the cause? Is this some sort of “timing” issue? If so, how or who is the best person to fix a timing issue? (yes I know a gun smith, but not all gun smiths are the same or known for quality work on revolvers, especially these days).

I have NO idea if my grandfather did himself, or had any trigger work or spring work done on this gun. Since I know this gun has sat idle for many years (probably nearly 20 years) as it sat in my Uncles gun safe (he is who I inherited it from), I was wondering if I should simply order a complete new set of springs for this gun. So as to at least start from a known square one. Is this a reasonable idea? If so where is the best source and best price for a complete spring set for this specific model. I would prefer to have a complete set from one source, rather than ordering 5 springs from 4 sources. So any help in this would be greatly appreciated.

I really like this beautiful gun and want to keep it in the family. And of course, I want to make sure that it is in great working order.

I have installed a Apex duty carry kit in my wife’s model 642. So I am not afraid to remove the side plate, clean and lube internally and install springs. But any “smithing” beyond that would probably have to be farmed out to a known quality smith.

I'm going to have to disagree with the responses in Post #2 and #3. It does not appear to me that your gun has a Target Trigger and Hammer, but DOES have a Target Hammer and a TRIGGER SHOE, as described by you as having a set screw. A photo would go a long way to verify this.

Kudos to the poster in Post #8 for hitting on what is your most likely problem with a hard pull in the action; debris under the extractor star. It's always best to have a brush on hand to take care of this when shooting, and to practice the muzzle up extraction technique, as stated.

 

[gmborkovic]

Oh please, no reamers. Or steel wool! Try
wiping the ammo off before loading the cyl.
Some feels waxy .It just might be a fraction of a thousandths of an inch out. Its a fun gun to shoot down by the creek with the kids.

 

[lrrifleman]

@D Brown,

It is possible that the OP has a trigger shoe. When I read the OP, I read the screw as having been installed to adjust trigger travel/over travel.

If the OP's revolver has a target hammer and a service trigger, chances are fair that they may not be fitted properly. If the set screw(s) are on the edge of the trigger {parallel to the trigger and hammer pins} he has an add-on trigger shoe. If the set screw is perpendicular to the trigger face, he has an over travel screw installed.

An easy way to determine if the heavy trigger pull is due to debris under the extractor is to fire a cylinder or two single action. If the culprit is debris under the extractor, the hammer should feel like it is binding.

 

[series guy]

The target hammer was introduced before the target trigger and many guns were sold with a target hammer, standard trigger and Magna stocks. Probably why a trigger shoe was added.

 

[D Brown]

Photos clear up most questions on configuration better than back and forth questions. There's no doubting the excellent knowledge base of our Forum Members, and If anyone took my previous post as a slight against any of those members, I assure you that was not the case or my intent. I have the utmost respect for all of my fellow members here.

I just wish we always had said photographic evidence to refer to.

 

[george_lehr]

Here's something else that you may find helpful for cleaning the cylinder charge holes. I use a .25 caliber rifle bore brush with a wing nut installed on the threads (instead of putting it on a cleaning rod). You will not be able to run it back and forth through the bores like a .22 brush, but the wing nut will allow you to twist it in and out. It fits much tighter and will scrub much better than a .22 caliber brush does. It's also handier to keep in the range bag for quick use at the range.
George

 

[steelslaver]

I don't know why every on is freaked out by reamers. Sammi gives a spec. It is what it is and a Sammi spec reamer isn't going to ruin your chamber if you have a clue. I reamed all of my K22 cylinders one afternoon. Easy ejection, easy insertion. Accuracy stayed the same. The reamer does not cut the throat area of the chamber or charge hole, even though 22lr chambers have no step for the throats. The amount of metal I got from doing 6 cylinders (36 chambers), probably did not weight a few grains. The amount of metal removed in each chamber was very slight and most of them the reamer didn't even start dragging until it was at least 1/2 way in.

When I want to go shoot my K22s I want to go enjoy shooting them, not stopping every few cylinders full and scrubbing them out. Pressing hard or tapping on my ejector rod. They should work just like all my center fires and mine do.

Good chance the reason he has occasional hard trigger pulls is recoil has caused the next shell coming into battery to back out slightly and the drag is from the recoil shield having to press it back in the tight chamber. If he has to press on them to chamber them, it is going to take some force to rottate the cylinder with a case head that has backed out a bit.

Yes, S&W made their K22 chambers tight for years. So what, they also made their 45 colt throats way oversized for years to. Neither of these were good things IMHO.

If you were one of the best shots in the world you might notice some accuracy difference with tight chambers, shooting match grade 22 shells. 99% of us are just shooting regular grade 22 shells at paper, cans and rabbits. I want to enjoy doing that, not screwing around with a gun that is finicky.

 

[Art Doc]

This model did not come with the Target trigger as standard. Same with Target hammer. If your gun has factory Target H&T they may not be original to the revolver and could have been installed at some point. These parts were sold as replacements. In my experience with S&W parts swapping, hammers and triggers will swap between guns about 90% of the time. The remaining 10% exhibit a problem much like you describe. A glitch or catch in the DA pull. Solution is someone mating these parts. Someone who knows what he's doing.

Target grade revolvers are tight on clearances. Most of my quality 22 revolvers will not allow cartridges to drop into the chambers under their own weight.

 

[max503]

Oh please, no reamers. Or steel wool! Try
wiping the ammo off before loading the cyl.
Some feels waxy .It just might be a fraction of a thousandths of an inch out. Its a fun gun to shoot down by the creek with the kids.

I beg to differ. I just reamed the cylinders on my ancient (1980) Model 34 AND I COULDN'T BE HAPPIER!


Here's the link. Read up and think it over. I put up with the same issues for decades. Wish I'd known about this fix sooner. It would have saved a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth. Please note - In addition to fixing difficult extraction, it also fixed those "binding while rotating" issues. I believe the fired cases would set-back upon firing and thus rub against the back plate of the frame. Now the cylinders don't "grasp" the fired cases and they are free to move and not bind the cylinder.
Finish reaming K22s, or, How To Solve Difficult Extraction In .22lr S&Ws

 

[H Richard]

I'm another believer in the Sammi reamer. I have done a 617, 17-4, 34, 63, 18, 22/32 Heavy Frame, and an outdoorsman and a few for friends. Never any accuracy changes, but a tremendous difference in frustration with the revolvers.

 

[Flyingfool]

Thanks for the responses.

I am not sure how to attach photos. As I only have them on my phone and not saved to a website.

I would say 99% that I have a trigger shoe. As there are two set screws on the left side of the shoe. The shoe is blued metal, and from the rear can see what appears the stock trigger that would be consistent in color with case hardened like the trigger.

I was using primarily old ammo to use it up. The ammo felt waxy so that certainly contributed to the issue. I definitely had to lish each and every cartridge into the cinder while loading. And unloading to a smart smack to ejector rod. Nothing crazy but still very diliberate force that to me was or at least should be unnecessary.

With how much resistance it took to push the bullets into the chamber, and with such minor recoil, I have a hard time believing that the shell would back out with recoil. But it would make sense so it is possible. Especially if I left one bullet slightly proud of the recess and this. dragging on the rear recoil shield

I will start with a complete cleaning and lube, including the internals. I will also spend considerable time cleaning the cylinder chambers, star and under the star.

I am not exactly sure how to measure end shake.

 

[ggibson511960]

Inspection Tricks

I use two "techniques" to inspect S&W revolvers. I don't see the mentioned much here, but they work.

First to look for a binding cylinder rotation, with the cylinder closed and latched, retract the hammer part way till the cylinder latching bolt withdraws from the cylinder notches. The cylinder is free to spin counter-clockwise, ratcheting on the spring loaded hand. You can easily feel any obstruction to rotation from fouling on the cylinder's face, insufficient cylinder to barrel clearance, or bent yoke or crane. You can do this after firing six cartridges to see if they are binding against the recoil plate. Don't relax the hammer and let the latching bolt scrape against the cylinder, exacerbating the dreaded ring.

The second is to check for smooth trigger action. Open and swing out the cylinder. Retract the cylinder latch with your left hand. You are then free to cock the hammer in single action or cycle the trigger and hammer in double action. The internals of the cylinder latch mechanism prevent both from happening when the cylinder is open and the latch is held forward. With the latch forward you can feel the double action trigger stroke without cylinder hand and cylinder rotation resistance.


Neither of these are completely definitive inspection techniques if something is really wrong. They don't completely substitute for pulling the sideplate and having a look, but they are very easy to do.

 

[gfors]

Federal seems to work best for me, CCI the worst. Polishing the holes with lead away cloth really helped.

 

[k22fan]

[...] Good chance the reason he has occasional hard trigger pulls is recoil has caused the next shell coming into battery to back out slightly and the drag is from the recoil shield having to press it back in the tight chamber. If he has to press on them to chamber them, it is going to take some force to rottate the cylinder with a case head that has backed out a bit. [...]

Are you sure about that? Recoil causes bullets to move forward, not back. Like every thing with mass bullets are inclined to stay where they are at. The revolver recoils back away from them. As I under stand it that's why heavy magnum bullets move forward in the case if they are not crimped tight enough. What force would make .22 LR act differently?

On the other hand, while loading the cylinder if I do not press .22 LR in flush then drag on the recoil shield causes irregular DA pull difficulty.

 

[max503]

I have a hard time believing that the shell would back out with recoil.

I think it backs out from the pressure of firing, not from recoil. Then, if a tight cylinder grabs the empty case it sits proud and drags.
A reamed cylinder allows the fired, expanded case to slip back into battery where it clears the back plate instead of dragging.

I can't tell you how much of a joy it is to shoot off 6 shots double action without binding. What ticks me off is that S&W doesn't fix this issue. That's what I don't understand.

 

[BB57]

I have a 3rd Model K22 Outdoorsman (Pre-17) and a "3 T" Model 17-3.

Both of them have snug chambers, but not to the degree the OP describes. In fact, I almost always load them with HKS speed loaders. They usually all drop in with clean chambers, and I'll normally only have 1 or 2 rounds per cylinder that might need a gentle push after I've shot a few cylinders. After 100 rounds or so however, they'll all need a bit of a nudge.

That tells me pretty clearly, that it's a build up of powder residue that is the issue.

-----

Subjectively speaking, I actually prefer the trigger pull on the K-22 by a very slight amount. The Model 17 has a great trigger, the K-22's trigger is just a little 'greater'.

-----

As some one noted above, a .25 caliber brush on a short handle or just a wing nut, and wetted with some solvent works great to get you back to your starting condition if you want them to drop right in again.

Someone else mentioned lifting the hammer slightly to unlock the cylinder so you can verify that nothing is rubbing or catching due to dirt or powder residue under an ejector star, a thick rim, etc. Bill Jordan was a big proponent of this check with a loaded service revolver to verify smooth functioning after loading it for duty use. It works just as well with a .22 Target revolver. Just be sure to keep your trigger finger out of the trigger guard and only use your thumb to lift the hammer enough to drop the cylinder bolt so the cylinder will spin freely. And, as always, keep it pointed in a safe direction.

 

[retnavyshooter]

A great thread! After many frustrating range visits with my M17, M18 and M34 I finally took the plunge and reamed all three guns. Could not be more pleased. Ejection problem solved or greatly reduced, loading problems almost eliminated even after a couple hundred rounds. Thanks to Buckyjames1 for loaning me the reamer.

 

[Flyingfool]

Well I finally had time to tear into the mod 17 and take a closer look at things.

First I looked at the front of the cylinder. There did appear to be some rubbing off of the carbon on the front of the cylinder where it appears the forcing cone rubbed off rhe carbon.

The cylinder does slightly “rattle” and move ever so slightly on the ejection axle. (Not sure the proper term). Is this “end shake”?

The movement is very small and doesn’t seem any different than other revolvers. Cant be more than a few thousandths.

Secondly, in taking apart the side plate, it apparently was opened up by ejther my grandfather or uncle. As there was evidence of dried up white lithium grease. My uncle is known for using white grease on everything aroind his house and car. So I highly suspect that is who applied this.

I spent a lot of time cleaning ans scrubbing out every nook and cranny that I could. And lubed everything lightly and reassembled it. All seems functional but have yet to take it out to see if it has eliminated my OP issues.

Three things I learned,

1) I REALLY want to buy the trigger return spring tool! What a pain it is to get that back installed without that simple tool!!

2) not to use white lithium grease. At least not if you are not routinely going to open things up and keep things freshly lubed.

3) it is a pain to align the hammer block with the slot in the side plate to get the side plate reinstalled. Is there some trick to making this easier?

Of all of this work does not fix the rubbing on the cylinder face. What is the solution? Do they make thin washer shims for the cylinder shake? Or does/can the forcing cone be threaded or seated more deeply in the barrel/frame?

 

[buckyjames1]

Good to hear the reamer worked.
It is a great way to make these S/W .22s work as they should.
My 617 10 shot had 5 cylinders that were fine and 6-10 were horrible. Luckily the first 5 cylinders were factory reamed clean and spec'd as they should have been because the 6th-10th were very bad. It has so much material removed from 6-10 cylinders, if it was the the first ones, I would have been very nervous about how much material came out.
It's as if Bucky's 617 was the absolute last gun that Smith and Wesson built before they checked their cylinder reamer bits and discovered it was dull as an episode of Golden Girls.
I've now added .38spl and .357mag reamers to the collection.
I checked my 686-6, 586 classic, and 60-10. Those removed minimal material but I'm just building up my Smithin' tool box.

See you at the range bud

 

[bearman49709]

Good to hear the reamer worked.

I must have missed it, I don't see anywhere op said he used a reamer.