25-5 accuracy

[JoeS]

After a search and reading some of what has previous been written about the 25-5 I'm ready to ask about this.
I picked up a 4" 25-5 that appears essentially new, faint turn line only, no doubt overpaid for it, but then again I haven't seen one for a ong time either.
In any case it appears to suffer from the dreaded oversized throats as evidenced by a .452 cast slug dropping through the chambers.
I have several guns in .45 colt, three third generation Colts and a S&W Mountain gun as well as a Winchester 1892 and a Uberti 1873 rifle so I would prefer not to have to come up with tailor made loads for this particular revolver.
Given that, anyone have much luck or a favorite recipe for a .452 cast slug thats worked well for them?

 

[JoeS]

After a search and reading some of what has previous been written about the 25-5 I'm ready to ask about this.
I picked up a 4" 25-5 that appears essentially new, faint turn line only, no doubt overpaid for it, but then again I haven't seen one for a ong time either.
In any case it appears to suffer from the dreaded oversized throats as evidenced by a .452 cast slug dropping through the chambers.
I have several guns in .45 colt, three third generation Colts and a S&W Mountain gun as well as a Winchester 1892 and a Uberti 1873 rifle so I would prefer not to have to come up with tailor made loads for this particular revolver.
Given that, anyone have much luck or a favorite recipe for a .452 cast slug thats worked well for them?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

Your asking for the impossible. I suspect that anyone who comes on and tells you that they have dicovered a load that shoots great with oversized throats, either isn't all that good of a shot or doesn't really know what a gun should be able to do at 25 yards. Any time a bullet gets a chance to tip even slightly, before it hits the forcing cone and then is forced down the barrel, it's not going to shoot very well. The easiest thing for you to do is buy Winchester 255 gr. or Remington 250 gr. bullets and load them up. They are .456" and .455" respectively, and they have hollow or at least slightly hollow bases that allow them to obturate and fill up the throats in oversized thoated guns. A lot of older Colts suffer from the same problem.

You need to check your throats with plug gauges. I have a 4" 25-5 that has .453 throats, which is actually a pretty decent size for shooting cast lead bullets. It shoots .452 and .453 great. When I drop a .452 bullet in the rear of the chamber and let it fall, it will rub the sides of the throat lightly, but fall through. My 25-7 has .452 throats and shoots fantastic with about anything.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

My 25-5 x 4" cylinder throats measured .457"-.458", with corresponding accuracy. I sent it to S&W to fit a new cylinder, came back with a what I think is a perfectly color matched cylinder and .451" throats. With .452" cast bullets I get one ragged hole off a rest at 50'. I believe my $182 for parts, labor, and shipping was well spent.....

 

[M29since14]

Given that, anyone have much luck or a favorite recipe for a .452 cast slug thats worked well for them?

I don't claim to be a good shot.

However, just let me say this. Back when I had a 25-5, I went through every imaginable load and bullet, or at least as many as my patience allowed. I had some luck when I increased the bullet diameter to .454 & .455. Not a lot. Doesn't matter because you sound like you don't want to do this, even though you probably could shoot .454 bullets in your other guns without any problems.

Anyway, my 44 Magnums would outshoot my 25 any day of the week, even with the bigger bullets. One day I was at the local pusher and he had a box of 500 Remington swaged-lead .45 Colt hollow-base bullets (.452-diameter, 255-gr. maybe?) that I had never noticed, just sitting there, covered with dust. I bought them hoping to solve the dreaded big throat problem. I had best results with 800-X powder, and they did work tolerably well. My best groups would be in the area of 2.5 - 3 inches at 25 yards.

Unfortunately, these bullets caused considerable leading. The leading did not seem to ruin accuracy, but I eventually traded the gun (foolishly, I might add) and thus never continued my testing with the Remington bullet. If you can find any, you might give them a try.

 

[sub-moa]

TwoPoundPull:

If you don't mind...

Was that recently?

How long did they take to do it?

I've got a pair, a 4" & a 6" I'd like to get done.

Thanks...

JoeS:

Sorry for the drift...

 

[JoeS]

Not at all, I was going to ask that myself.
If I have to do all that I might inquire with them about a Performance Center action job and maybe even some engraving. I don't have one of thse BBQ guns per se

. I'm deep enough in it already whats more money?

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

If anyone is interested, Smith new they had a problem and while these guns (25-5's) were in production would replace your cylinder for free with one of correct throat size.
When I called them a couple of years ago about getting a new extractor, I asked about the cylinder situation and if they still had any. The answer was no. All old stock had been used up and the newer style of extractor requires a different cylinder design and ratchet and wouldn't work in a gun with the older design.
I really don't see why it wouldn't. If you change the whole cylinder assembly, then there really shouldn't be any problem. Maybe it has something to do with diamentions between the older design and yoke and the newer one. It wouldn't hurt to call and ask. Maybe you'll get a different answer from someone who knows more about it than the guy I talked to, although it was the custom shop.

 

[TwoPoundPull]

sub-moa & JoeS
I don't mind...
Done in August 08
I believe it was less than two weeks.
At the time I was told they had ninty cylinders in stock.
They also changed the cylinder bolt and spring.
Could try to post a picture if you're intrested.
And...Your Welcome.......2#

 

[keithherrington]

According to the people I deal with at the Performance Center, the new style ratchet is compatible with the old style gun. The new 45 Colt cylinders S&W fits to their current Model 25s should work on your older 25. If your original cylinder is recessed however (I can't remember if mine were or not), then they will have to install a new frame stud to compensate for the non-recessed style of the new cylinders.

 

[The Maxo]

What was the time frame for 25-5s with the over sized throats? I've been given to understand that later ones did not have this problem.

As an alternative would could get a Blackhawk of appropriate vintage and obtain poor accuracy with under sized throats. (Easier to fix, just ream them out.)

 

[sub-moa]

Thanks TwoPoundPull...

Both my 25-5s are 1980 guns, 672 numbers apart, pinned but not recessed. Should be an easy switch.

I'll look into it, thanks again...

 

[Yorkie Man]

I have a 1980 gun that has .457 throats, sometimes it will keyhole. Mine in nickle,I wonder if they have any nickle cylinders?

 

[JoeS]

I called Smith today. There was no suggestion that they could not fit a new cylinder if needed. The suggestion was to send it back and have them measure it.
My thinking is that I may have them do a pc action job on it and I may possibly go for some b class engraving. No doubt a fortune but I don't have a fancy gun and feel like I might enjoy one.

 

[VonFatman]

My big-throated 25-5 leaded like crazy until I bought the correct bullets. Now I reload two bullet sizes and have no worries...with the correct bullets, all my .45 Colt S&Ws are tack drivers!

Bob

 

[Beaver]

Does anyone have a theory why Smith would make throats that large? Was it poor QA or was there a reason? Just thinking. beaver.

 

[john traveler]

I believe it has to do with the legacy, the "tradition" of .45 Colt ammunition and chamber dimensions over the last 136 years of .45 Colt production.

Since it's introduction in the 1873 SAA, the .45 Colt used nominal barrel groove diameters of 0.454" to as large as 0.457". Chamber dimensions for the nominal bullet groove diameter of 0.454" were equally generous, with mouth diameters exceeding 0.460" at times. This practice was used by the British military as well with their .455 caliber Webley service revolvers. The thinking was that the black powder fouling of the contemporary ammunition needed somewhere to go, and the sloppy tolerances helped to insure battlefield reliability and reloading ease. For accuracy, the service pistol bullets were soft lead hollow-base designs to accomodate the barrel dimensions. This practice was apparently maintained throughout the change to smokeless powder ammunition.

Colt maintained the 0.454" barrel groove diameters up to WWII when SAA and New Service production was halted. When the SAA .45 Colt was reintroduced in the middle 1950's, the standard barrel groove diameter was set at 0.451", same as for the .45 ACP. This was probably a cost-saving measure for using war surplus tooling.

S&W, with it's manufacturing experience for .45 caliber revolvers dating back to the 1873 contemporary Schofield model, simply followed Colt SAA barrel and chamber dimensions to keep the Army inspectors happy. The tooling and manufacturing know-how was applied to the New Century ("Triple Lock") and following N frame models.

When Colt standardized on the tighter bore and chambers in the mid-1950s, I believe S&W was slow in catching up. Tooling cost may have been one factor. An oversized chamber reamer or rifling broach will have longer life (sustain more re-sharpenings) if it starts out just a bit oversized, but "still within specification". This attitude toward tooling costs still persists for non-critical machining tolerances in other industries, not just gun making.

I believe it was complaints from the bullseye shooting buyers that finally caused S&W to tighten up chamber and barrel dimensions for improved accuracy. Throughout the 1950s and 1960s up to the early 1970s revolver bullseye shooting was still very popular.

You will notice that the .38 Special, another extremely popular, 108 year old cartridge, and in continuous production by S&W never had to undergo these changes. That is another story.

 

[JoeS]

I shot it today with some 250grain cast lead commercial reloads.
At about 30 yards I was seeig about a 5" group but no particular sign of keyholing. I'm afraid this will not do. I've got some information coming from Smith on engraving so will see if this is what I want to do. I might see if I can rustle up some .454 slugs and see what it does even though reloading a whole seperate group of ammo just for it doesn't appeal to me a great deal.

 

[Beaver]

I just read again a snippet from Elmer's "Gun Notes" one, page 73 and 74 about this exact problem. He said that good accuracy was possible with correctly cast .457 cast bullets, if a mold could be found. Comments/Thoughts, beaver.