2ND MODEL 1903

[Nicksterdemus]

[Removed link as photos have been pulled following sale]
S & W 2ND MODEL 1903 HAND EJECTOR
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32 long cal; 10% blue, good bore, very good grips, 3.25'' barrel, 2nd model 1st change. Made 1904-1906. Only traces of blue finish remains in protected areas. Factory engraved and factory pearl grips. Mechanically fine., s/n 4785x--

Now you know what I know. Basically no blue left, but touted as factory engraved w/factory mop stocks. Pricey no doubt and I didn't notice before purchase that the right side of the barrel appears to have most every bit of the engraving worn smooth off.

From what I can see in the picture the rest, including 4 of the six cylinders, engraving seems to be in decent enough shape.

What's the odds the mop came from the factory? As well why would the barrel be worn so much on the right side when the rest of the right side looks fairly sharp?

 

[glowe]

Here is what I know about your revolver. First, Collector's Firearms has never sold a well priced gun to my knowledge. Their prices are always set above market. Second, the stocks are most likely factory, since only S&W used the gold logo and advertised it extensively in their catalogs.

Lastly, the finish is gone as you say and there is quite a bit of wear on the metal to the point that it has removed the stamping and engraving. I am at a quandary about value. These are common revolvers, but engraved guns should command a definite premium. The stocks should bring at least a couple hundred bucks by themselves, so maybe $450 +/-????

 

[DWalt]

" Their prices are always set above market." I'd say WAY above market from what I've seen.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

I agree that for the most part they are very high. It's an arm that might be worth the cost ten years or so down the road. Of course I have a three day inspection, but then I would be out 10% of the cost. By the time I pay my guy & shipping I'm staring at seven bills.

As noted I didn't see the worn barrel on the right side in my snap decision to purchase. Figured I'd roll the die and see what flies. 1904-1906 and a couple of thousand shy of the end of the run of 31,700. I guess 1906 was the year of manufacture.

Naturally, when I asked if the SN matched all I got was the SN on the butt. Allegedly she didn't/couldn't see one on the cylinder face or barrel flat. For all I know it was already wrapped. I have a 1913 HE 38 caliber pre-heat treated cylinder and it has SN in all four spots regular spots. As I understand this one should as well.

Thanks for the information and taking the time and trouble to post guys.

ETA: The engraving isn't elaborate, but it does extend to the cylinder. Out of 31,700 in this run how many do you think might have been engraved?

ETA IIage 40 SCSW appears to suggest the New York/Nimschke style scroll. Page 41 though showing 1-8 coverage styles from the late 1890's seems to lean towards number 3-5. I'm certainly in no position to judge, yet the coverage implies middle of the road. The examples 1-6 are tip ups and it's hard for me to relate their coverage to that of a hand ejector. I guess less than 10 years down the road that the same 8 varying amounts of coverage were still being offered.

Anyone w/engraving knowledge feel free to jump in and bail me out. I can't really tell using the book. However, it is helpful in giving me a rough idea. I'd have to letter it I suppose to know for sure, yet it's still quite enjoyable speculating.

Speaking of, I wonder how many pockets/times that little rascal rode shotgun in a gent's jacket or lady's purse.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Pistol came in and surprise surprise the barrel flat SN B 9779X doesn't match. It does match the extractor star and probably the cylinder. Only three numbers on the face are clear, the last w/10X loupe is probably correct and there's a scratch obliterating any trace of the first number. On the cylinder face under the ejector is the same small capital B as on the barrel flat & grip frame.

The butt flat isn't flat or rounded. It has a channel/depression running the length of the butt forcing the SN 4785X to be stamped on the ever so slightly wider right side.

Interestingly enough the frame inside the yoke has the same SN as the butt though in type half the size & more of a block style. I thought that practice didn't start until the late 50's.

Pulling the MOP stocks I note the left side has a large chip repair, Under the 10x loupe I see the tiniest ridge along a section that must be some type of adhesive. It is a very well done repair & if not for the ridge on one section , along w/10X loupe, it could be mistaken for a fracture that starts at the medallion .

By the right pin on the grip frame there's a T along with B. On the left side by the pin is an ampersand. On top of the barrel the last patent date is February 6, 1906.

Locks up fairly tight w/little movement. The five screws aren't badly buggered though it is obvious under scrutiny that they've been removed more than once.

It would seem a mite odd to me that the barrel, cylinder and ejector star of a 1903 HE 4th change engraved I frame 32 was fitted to a 1903 HE 1st change also engraved frame. I'd be more apt to believe that the barrel SN is correct it's a 4th change and somewhere down the road, intentionally or not, the assembly number was stamped on the butt after cutting a modified V channel where the original serial number previously resided. Why the correct SN wasn't stamped, if this is the case, is up for speculation.

Then again perhaps it wasn't unusual to have the SN stamped inside the frame opposite the yoke in a .32 mod 1903 1st change circa 1906. If that's the case then there would be six spots where the SN was stamped.

ETA: I'm revising my chip deduction in the left side stock. It doesn't come full circle to qualify as a chip. As well the side coming down has gathered debris which is what one would suspect in a fissure breaking surface. On the crack going back up to the shoulder someone applied an adhesive "line/fill" in minute amounts. You can feel both w/fingernail though only the ridge of the repair w/finger pad. The difference in left & right side stocks is a shortage of material on the left side accompanied by a depression starting just below the screw. This crater expands to the back edge close to the front falling short of the medallion by maybe a quarter of an inch. Already weakened by lack of material merely applying too much torque to the fastening screw could have easily induced more pressure than the shell could withstand; not being the strongest of material in the first place.

 

[DWalt]

Are you planning to send it back?

 

[Nicksterdemus]

In spite of the number peculiarity I agree w/MOP stocks description of very good, so I suppose I'll keep it. Any other time I would've put it on hold and researched it for a few days, but something about the little round butt I frame w/short barrel, MOP stocks and well worn engraving w/hardly any blue left spoke to me.

Among other things I wonder why the right side of the barrel has lost practically all of it's engraving whilst the left side is fairly well intact surrounding the box w/32 LONG CTG

ETA: I know even less, if that's possible, about holsters. This arm apparently rode quite a bit in the provided holster. Having formed imprints from the triggerguard/cylinder/frame/front sight/barrel and even the hammer spur. Only 1/2 inch of leather real estate extends beyond the 3 1/4" barrel. As snug a fit I tend to believe that this holster, if not for this particular pistola, was made for a short barreled I frame. A brass rivet holds the back edge together along w/stitching. Two DOT brass snaps w/what appears to be tin backing secures the package in place on a maximum inch & half width belt. What I also couldn't tell from the picture is that this tooled holster has a flap that can be slipped over a belt and snapped on/off w/o removal of belt. I'm truly at a loss interpreting the flower and vegetation. The little pods stamped inside of the flower are different than the pods filling up the background. Quite a bit of deep relief and detail on the outside of the flower and the leaf that fills the top. More so than the picture reveals. A real handy inside the jacket/coat canted forward, 30* evah so roughly, behind the hip right side BBQ special.
The link is still up that shows the holster should anyone care to share their knowledge.

ETA II: Third edition SCSW Pg. 126 .32 HE mod 03 1st change. At about SN 4800 the hmr nose rivet was changed from solid to hollow w/flared ends. Mine is the hollow type.

2nd change lists SN observed on butt, cylinder face, yoke, barrel flat & back of the star extractor.

3rd change the last patent date on top of barrel is listed as February 8, 1906. I figure that was intended to be February 6, 1906 as the listed Feb 6, 06 on the rebound slide which this arm has as well.
Lists SN observed on barrel flat, cylinder face, yoke, & frame.

If the number stamped on the butt, in larger type, is the SN then my frame across from the yoke has the same along w/inside of the sideplate making it a first change around 1906. And a hodgepodge w/barrel/cylinder/star & possibly hollow hmr rivet from a later model that also happened to have the same style engraving.

If the frame/sideplate are assembly numbers then the SN on the butt was presumably a mis-strike, given benefit of doubt, and perhaps the barrel flat/cylinder face, at least the three middle numbers and the ejector star are the original SN.

By the fifth change there's two extractor locator pins. Mine has none.

I guess only a letter would reveal if both/either SN were 3 1/4" 32 long mod of 1903 engraved w/MOP stocks.

ETA III: I've looked at pics of the I frame .32 HR butt and SN online. Copying those & enlarging them reveals that the height of the SN is about 1/5 the width of the butt. On mine the channel is cut slightly off center as it needed the extra width for the taller stamp type. and slightly askew though all in all it looks fairly decent. The current SN height is about one third the width of the butt or 1.25X-1.5X the size of SN I'm seeing online. The restrike is noticeably taller and the only inclusive numeral is seven. The larger seven allows room for more flair/curve and comparing the eight, to the much smaller pattern date on top of the barrel, shows rounded type instead of flattened.

Somewhat of a quandary for me weak noodle. Whilst odds are always good that an arm might have parts from another I never really considered the possibility of an engraved arm having spare engraved parts. Before I read through the notes on various changes of the I frame .32 HE Mod 03 I would've bet the farm that the replaced butt SN was a copy from assembly numbers. Now I read where some SN have been found on frame, doesn't go into any specifics on location though didn't include butt in that description, and yoke, doesn't say on the frame across from the yoke, so I'm mostly back to square one.

I've yet to run across any mention of the numbers on the back of the sideplate. They match the numbers on the frame across from the yoke and since a restrike, after cutting a modified rounded V channel, match the given SN on the butt.

I'll speculate that the small capital B, on the barrel flat/cylinder face behind the extractor star and bottom of gripframe, stands for blue. If that's the case then I wonder how many blued engraved of this style/whichever #1-8 engraved it may be were produced vs. nickel versions. Regardless if my assumptions on the B are correct involving another variable affords greater odds.

W/o any viable assistance save the Third Edition SCSW I can only conclude w/ltd information that this sidearm has assembly numbers on the frame & sideplate. Also someone, for whatever reasoning, obviously cut a channel in the butt removing any trace of factory SN, 9779X, and adopted said assembly number 4785X as the SN. Preference in digits/location of same on frame across from yoke, honest mistake or nefarious attempt at incognito veiled in secrecy are all possibilities.

It doesn't sound right that the factory assembled an engraved model and went, "Whoops, wrong number/duplicate SN let's cut a quick channel and restrike w/larger type." W/o knowledge any possibility could be viable. It's merely a matter of deciding the why in the cut & restrike.

There's little doubt that the other set of numbers, three-9779X/two-4785X[3 as I've now found faint numbers on the yoke] are original factory stamps. However, it would still appear to me that the best odds lie w/SN 9779X as being correct and the second strike of 4785X being a mistake.

As a BBQ gun w/worn engraving virtually no blue/in the white MOP stocks and a probably handmade forward cant tooled leather holster it's of no concern whether produced in 1906 or 1910. Nor does two opposing SN possibilities distract in that respect. In fact the cut channel w/restrike adds to the air of mystique about the arm if anything though more than likely would deduct from similar matching numbers. At best w/low-middle of the road engraving in this condition and matching SN the value w/o provenance would still be modest. As far as the engraving the only thing that the linked pictures do not show is engraving from behind the hmr and down the hump to an imaginary line almost level w/bottom edge of medallion. Quite similar to the other patterns though not another exact copy to found elsewhere. At the bottom of the back strap there's an elongated copy of the design that's on the frame betwixt the forcing cone and the barrel.

I've dug as deep as spade allows. I can find no other clues that might help shed light one way or another. Now you know as much as me and that is precious little. Although I'm more than happy to entertain any possibilities from sages far more knowledgeable than I.

ETA IV: One last tidbit under 10X loupe and flashlight. After the 9779X under the extractor there's a symbol. I thought at first it was an ampersand perhaps not fully struck, but it appears to be a 0 w/straight bar running through the bottom of the zero not an O. The left side of the zero covers the bar going through and the right side of the zero is coverd by the bar.

If that was burned on the flank of a cow it would belong to the Bar None.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

OK, the Bar None made for a whopping good story, but it's obvious enough that it's a light ampersand strike. I know B is blued & N is nickeled though I'm still at a loss on the T. It isn't a target model.

Here's a lettered .32 Model 1903 for a factory #3 engraving example. Appears to have a solid rivet securing firing pin. Along w/pinned brl is a pinned front sight that surely quickly fell to the wayside in favor of the solid forged sight/brl.

Factory Engraved Three Digit Serialized Smith & Wesson 32 Hand Ejector Model of 1902 with Factory Le

[Click on one of the four boxes, down & to the left, for full size pictures. Then navigate from the middle of left or right side for next/previous picture.]

"Also referred to as the 32 Hand Ejector Second Model, this revolver was manufactured in 1903 and was a Special Engraved Edition featuring factory Number 3 scroll and punch dot engraving on the rear barrel sides, cylinder flats and frame. "

Under that criteria mine would be at least, & most probably, a #4. It's regrettable that the SN adopted, in my opinion, is the assembly number. I've also located faint same on the bottom of the yoke that I didn't notice previously.

If I'm correct this is a fourth change w/SN matching on the brl flat, cylinder & extractor w/assembly numbers matching inside of sideplate, yoke, yoke cut out on frame and then borrowed for a re-strike on the butt after cutting a small rounded channel the length of the butt.

If not then both numbers would letter to be blued, engraved, to at least #4, mod 1903 .32 long, w/4785X possibly being 32-20, and perhaps one also coming from the factory w/MOP stocks. At least 9779X indeed was 3 1/4" brl.

Mine, not the linked example from this #8 post, is a low relief style that actually shows little overall wear except for the butchery of the channel cut on the butt and the almost completed loss of the right side barrel embellishment that only shows a tad better than faint outer boundary outline of what looks to be the same as the left side. The pictures don't do the detail justice. Being mostly in the white w/blue remaining in the engraving for the most part helps in the contrast.

I can note a straight vertical line at the rear that implies the right side as well had a rectangular box though it would be impossible to ascertain if it said, 32 LONG CTG or anything.

One interesting aspect of the engraving on mine is found on the left side diagonally from the S&W trademark in the direction of the butt. The floral vine, going left right & up, is wrapped there in a collar/napkin holder. There's no such collar on the other side. That addition appears to be somewhat unique though it doesn't stand out well in the low resolution pics even under full zoom.

So, if you have a picture of an engraving w/similar collar or could shed light on the T stamp, at the bottom right side grip frame by the stock pin across from the B, then by all means share.

ETA Pics:
I didn't take them hence the low resolution. However they will show the style of engraving on both sides. On the left you'll be able to see the napkin holder clearly that I referenced earlier. I know nothing, save only being able to afford lower end examples, about engraved models. However, it seems to me that styles are differing from one side of the frame to the other. I realize the left side has to encompass the S&W stamp, but the circular movement of the sideplate appears at odds w/vine style on the left.
Then again, what do I know?

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Pardon the bump, but I wanted a chance to offer a couple of pics that I snapped of the old gal w/more detail.

 

[Muley Gil]

I like it, though I prefer ivory to pearl (that old George Patton thing, ya know ).

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Thanks for the kind words Muley. I'd have preferred the same though tusk would've certainly pushed this well worn example beyond my meager budget. As w/other examples in my small & modest accumulation; had they not displayed significant issues someone else would've beat me to it w/even more moolah.

I enjoy peering at the finer examples, yet am thankful when able to snag a distressed piece that lies within reach of my cobbled finances. This will probably be the only engraved example that I can acquire.

Perhaps I can afford a set of ivories, dependent on price, should a pair come down the pike. More peculiar instances have occurred.

It only took me five and half years to snap a pic of my 1917 'R'. Though I managed to pick up a 25-2 the stags on the gubbermint model will also represent the only fancy N-frame stocks of mine.

Poor ole nickel 15-3 is having to get by w/faux ivory wrappers a la Jay Scott and damned proud to be sportin' 'em. Akin to the 1917 it has one side that is presentable to guests.

Betwixt the MOP .32 and the wanna be ivory 38 spl I wonder which Patton would have chosen.

Although the channel, a modified V/U obliterating original strike on the butt, is well machined off center to allow slightly larger set of number stamps it is also slightly off axis whilst running the length of the butt. If the factory struck butt was so damaged that it required cutting a channel to start over, I know that's a lot of 'ifs', I'm somewhat confident that they would've cut a straight channel in relation to the butt.

Along w/pic I offer anyone to share their thoughts.

ETA: The SN on the yoke viewed through the chambers matches everything else save the butt strike. Regardless of claim of 47856 the SN would appear to actually be 9779X even w/only a partial read on the cylinder face. I don't know for how long, but currently 47856 is the SN of record.
To my knowledge only a letter to Mr. Jinks could confirm factory engraved model to serial number.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Are you planning to send it back?

Nope. My apologies in taking so long to respond.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

I figure, due to other SN brl flat, extractor & partial cylinder, that this .32 HE Mod 1903 is a fourth change, one of 6,374 of 1910. Here are some more shots w/stacked 3 lens macro also utilizing 0-3x lens zoom & macro setting to frame the pic for a total of 7-8 or so power. I held a led light for illumination. I didn't think to clean the surface. On the S&W TM pic at 4:30 roughly you see a collar on the vine as a napkin ring. That's a clue that surely has occurred on another arm.

 

[Nicksterdemus]

Merely wish to try some differing pics to see how they look online compared w/others.