2nd model value

[MrTrolleyguy]

My weekly visit to a lgs turned up a lovely S&W 38s&w 2nd model (of what? I do not know) in Nickel. It was a top break. The finish is excellent considering the age. Serial #30158 It comes with a green box. I am sure that is very rare.

The asking price is a whopping $895.00

I took pictures with my smart phone but darn if I can find where they are. They are not in the Gallery where in the past photos showed up.

If they are in there I will add them later.

 

[glowe]

Hammer or Hammerless?? Either way, the price is probably way too high. To me when you say "finish is excellent considering the age", that means some loss of some finish?? If so, you are looking at a revolver worth less than $300 unless a rare barrel length.

The box is worth maybe $250 if is good shape, so you are looking at a $500 set as a first guess.

Let us know the answers to my couple of questions and if you can get the pictures and the value may change up or down.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Gary, Just called the shop. Barrel length is 4 inch and it does have a hammer.

If need be I will go up tomorrow with a better camera.

 

[glowe]

Gary, Just called the shop. Barrel length is 4 inch and it does have a hammer.

If need be I will go up tomorrow with a better camera.

Can you estimate percentage of nickel finish? A 4" barrel is pretty common and so is a 2nd Model 38 DA, so no value adder there. I still thinking around $300 revolver, unless a 98 percent plus gun, plus the value of the box.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Originally Posted by MrTrolleyguy
Gary, Just called the shop. Barrel length is 4 inch and it does have a hammer.

If need be I will go up tomorrow with a better camera.

Can you estimate percentage of nickel finish? A 4" barrel is pretty common and so is a 2nd Model 38 DA, so no value adder there. I still thinking around $300 revolver, unless a 98 percent plus gun, plus the value of the box.

I will get pictures rather than give a guesstimate based on my limited experience.

 

[tlay]

I have to agree on the $300 value. I have been buying a lot of these lately from $150 to $350 in very good condition. I think even with the box, if it is numbers matching, the price is $350 too high.

 

[Masterpiece]

My weekly visit to a lgs turned up a lovely S&W 38s&w 2nd model (of what? I do not know) in Nickel. It was a top break. The finish is excellent considering the age. Serial #30158 It comes with a green box. I am sure that is very rare.

MrTrolleyguy,

Here are a couple more questions the others mistakenly didn't think to ask that may make a "Big" difference as to just what this Revolver may be!!

First one...Does the Revolver in question have a Triggerguard??

Secondly...Does the Box have a Partition inside...Or look to originally have had??

Reason I asked the above is I believe this Revolver may just be a 2nd Model 38 Single Action with it's Original Box...Of course I realize without photos that's only speculation on my part...Although given what you've described so far I suspect my assumption has a good possibility of being correct!!

So if my speculation proves to be correct ...Depending on the Revolver's Condition...As well as the Box...I'd say that price isn't too far out of line...Possibly even a Bargain...Keep us posted!!

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

MrTrolleyguy,

Here are a couple more questions the others mistakenly didn't think to ask that may make a "Big" difference as to just what this Revolver may be!!

First one...Does the Revolver in question have a Triggerguard??

Secondly...Does the Box have a Partition inside...Or look to originally have had??

Reason I asked the above is I believe this Revolver may just be a 2nd Model 38 Single Action with it's Original Box...Of course I realize without photos that's only speculation on my part...Although given what you've described so far I suspect my assumption has a good possibility of being correct!!

So if my speculation proves to be correct ...Depending on the Revolver's Condition...As well as the Box...I'd say that price isn't too far out of line...Possibly even a Bargain...Keep us posted!!

Masterpiece, There is no trigger guard. The box has S&W information in the top half of the box. On the bottom in red ink it is stamped NICKEL PLATED. There is tissue paper in the box. It appears that three pieces of white cardboard that may at one time been a partition now lay flat in the bottom of the box. Each part IIRC is generally triangular in shape.


Looking at the SWSC it is most like the photos on pages 64 & 66 of a 1 -2 nd. Not sure if it has the bayonet style latch.

Does this help?

ps: call me Trolley

 

[Masterpiece]

There is no trigger guard. The box has S&W information in the top half of the box. On the bottom in red ink it is stamped NICKEL PLATED. There is tissue paper in the box. It appears that three pieces of white cardboard that may at one time been a partition now lay flat in the bottom of the box. Each part IIRC is generally triangular in shape.~~~Does this help?

Trolley,

Well as far as Your New Info "Helping"...*Yes & No*!! Yes...Confirming my speculation it didn't have a Triggerguard & the Box originally having a Triangular Partition inside!! And No...By you now making mention it's "Possibly" a Tip-Up...Rather than a Top-Break!! So given the above...I suppose it's best to wait for you to post some Photos so we can confirm...One Way Or The Other...Just what this Revolver is!!

In the mean time...One further question that may help for the moment is this...When you made mention of the S&W Info being in the Top Half of the Box...Were you referring to a "Directions For Use" Label pasted inside the Top Half with No Labels on the Outside of the Box whatsoever?? If so...I'm still leaning towards this Revolver being a 2nd Model 38 Single Action Top-Break...Be back when you're able to post some Photos!!

 

[glowe]

Trolley - something is wrong with this approach at identifying a S&W. I am not understanding why you did not let us know all the details about this revolver at once. There is a great thread to help you narrow down the possibilities.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/326458-identify-your-gun.html

You started out by stating you had a 38 S&W and now tell us that it looks like a Model 1 Tip-Up? Pictures are needed to get much further on this gun.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Trolley - something is wrong with this approach at identifying a S&W. I am not understanding why you did not let us know all the details about this revolver at once. There is a great thread to help you narrow down the possibilities.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-antiques/326458-identify-your-gun.html

You started out by stating you had a 38 S&W and now tell us that it looks like a Model 1 Tip-Up? Pictures are needed to get much further on this gun.

I am sorry, I am unfamilar with the terminology with this era weapons. The gun opened by lifting the leaver and the barrel tilted down and the extractor lifted the cases. Does that make it a top break or flip top?

I will be heading to the gs in 30 minutes to get pictures.

 

[Masterpiece]

The gun opened by lifting the leaver and the barrel tilted down and the extractor lifted the cases. Does that make it a top break or flip top?

Trolley,

Just so you know...It's a Top-Break if you have to lift the Barrel Latch at the rear of the Barrel to open it automatically ejecting the Spent Cartridges!!

The Barrel Latch on Tip-Ups is located at the lowest point of the Barrel where it connects the Frame!! To remove the Spent Cartridges on these..It's done manually after it's opened...Removing the Cylinder...And the Fired Casings removed by pushing them out towards the rear thru the Cylinder Chambers with the Ejector Rod located just under the Barrel!!

Also...When taking Photos...Please take some Overall & Close-Ups of both the Box & Revolver...Taking a few extras wouldn't hurt either in case we'd ask to see an area you wouldn't think to be relevant even if you don't post all of them!! That will also save some time by returning to take more in case you have serious interest if you think a price can be negotiated!!

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

I was not able to get the sharpest photos without a tripod. These do a poor job of showing finish loss. When the clerk took the box from the display case the bottom dropped out. So the box has to listed as poor quality.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Trolley,

Just so you know...It's a Top-Break if you have to lift the Barrel Latch at the rear of the Barrel to open it automatically ejecting the Spent Cartridges!!

The Barrel Latch on Tip-Ups is located at the lowest point of the Barrel where it connects the Frame!! To remove the Spent Cartridges on these..It's done manually after it's opened...Removing the Cylinder...And the Fired Casings removed by pushing them out towards the rear thru the Cylinder Chambers with the Ejector Rod located just under the Barrel!!

Also...When taking Photos...Please take some Overall & Close-Ups of both the Box & Revolver...Taking a few extras wouldn't hurt either in case we'd ask to see an area you wouldn't think to be relevant even if you don't post all of them!! That will also save some time by returning to take more in case you have serious interest if you think a price can be negotiated!!

I have already been there and back.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

I am adding one more photo of the box which was modified with Photoshop to bring up the faded printing.

 

[glowe]

Great pictures. Masterpiece has the correct guess, you are looking at a very nice 38 Single Action, 2nd Model. The revolver was a 5 shot that uses 38 S&W centerfire ammunition. That gun would have shipped from the factory somewhere around 1880.

You stated that the asking price was $900 with the original box. The revolver is common and often found for sale, but the box is quite rare and not often found, especially with the gun. The question is what's it worth? One can only guess without having it in hand, but these in high condition will push $750 today. The box may well be worth $300 today, so I would say the asking price is a good deal. Now if the gun is less than 95% original nickel, the price would drop quickly, so look it over carefully.

 

[Masterpiece]

I have already been there and back.

Trolley,

I see that...Boy you're fast...Either that or the shop must be fairly close...Ha!!~Ha!! And it is a 2nd Model 38 Single-Action Top-Break...In case you were still wondering!!

A real shame about the Box...Although other than the Base no longer being connected...From what I can see of the Inside...It looks to be in decent condition with the exception of the Partition Uprights being removed!!

Does it by chance show any evidence that there was a Label ever pasted to the Box Top itself...Just Curious?? Reason I ask is...Even though 2nd Model 38 Single Action Boxes were supposed to originally have had a Rendering of the Revolver in an Oval pasted on the Top...I've only ever crossed paths with One 2nd Model Box in all my years that it ever showed evidence of one ever existing...And for the most part...It was gone!!

Now as far as the Revolver's Condition...And given the Photos could be just a bit clearer as well as being hard to photograph Nickeled Revolvers in general...Sure looks to be in Pretty High Original Condition to me...Or are there questionable areas of Finish Loss not easily seen in the Photos?? Guess we'll see what the others think in case I'm missing something!!

Also...Have they given you a firm price as what they'd be willing to accept for it...Or are they waiting for you to make an offer??

 

[Masterpiece]

The revolver is common and often found for sale, but the box is quite rare and not often found, especially with the gun. The question is what's it worth? One can only guess without having it in hand, but these in high condition will push $750 today. The box may well be worth $300 today, so I would say the asking price is a good deal.

Hmmm...Guess I'm even a Slower Typist than what I thought Gary...Although I figured you'd beat me to it regardless...Ha!!~Ha!!

Anyway Trolley...Overall I'm pretty much in agreement with Gary's Assessment...With possibly the only exception being even though "All" of these Boxes are somewhat Rare...I found in years gone by 4" Boxes are by far the hardest to come across...Making them even more valuable...Unless that has changed in recent years!!

I also think...Now seeing the Photos...The Asking Price is acceptable if you're serious, but given the condition problem of the Box, I'd say that may be a bargaining chip to negotiate a better deal...That is if they're willing to do so...Just My Opinion!!

 

[glowe]

I found in years gone by 4" Boxes are by far the hardest to come across...Making them even more valuable...

You are right about 4" boxes, but it is difficult to value these things, especially with condition issues. Reality is that whatever price we put on the revolver and box, it will exceed the current asking price, so I would go buy the set.

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

I did not notice any evidence of a label on the top of the box. That does not mean it was never there. The three pieces I thought were partitions were actually glued to the bottom of the box. I think what gave out on the box bottom was the tape and not a tearing or deterioration. A glue problem I'd guess. They may even be willing to sell the box separately. I do not know.

All compliments about my photography are graciously accepted, however, had the gun been in my light box with diffused lighting and with a tripod mounted camera I would have been able to clearly show the loss of finish. I would say an amateur rating would be 80-85% Loss was seen in the flutes of the cylinder (not the outer round), midway along the barrel on both sides and the tiniest specks near the base of the front sight. Of course there were other minor blemishes.

Yes, the shop is five minutes from the house.

The piece has only been in the shop for a few day and is on consignment. Would they entertain offers? It might be too early for that. I suspect it wont fly out the door. Of course it could be gone right now!

Thanks for all the information and interest. I am totally uninformed about early Smiths. Since this is not a collector's prized find I doubt if I will make an offer. If anyone would like to inquire about it, feel free to do so.

BTW: John Lock showed me his true military model 12 marked Revolver, Lightweight M13 in white lettering. Very rare indeed. But that is another thread.

 

[Masterpiece]

Reality is that whatever price we put on the revolver and box, it will exceed the current asking price, so I would go buy the set.

Gary,

My thoughts as well!!

 

[Masterpiece]

I did not notice any evidence of a label on the top of the box. That does not mean it was never there. The three pieces I thought were partitions were actually glued to the bottom of the box. I think what gave out on the box bottom was the tape and not a tearing or deterioration. A glue problem I'd guess. They may even be willing to sell the box separately. I do not know.

All compliments about my photography are graciously accepted, however, had the gun been in my light box with diffused lighting and with a tripod mounted camera I would have been able to clearly show the loss of finish. I would say an amateur rating would be 80-85% Loss was seen in the flutes of the cylinder (not the outer round), midway along the barrel on both sides and the tiniest specks near the base of the front sight. Of course there were other minor blemishes.

Yes, the shop is five minutes from the house.

Trolley,

First of all I assumed the shop had to have been close because even though I'm probably the Slowest Typist I know...I didn't think I was "That" slow...Ha!!~Ha!!

Secondly, I'll be the last one to criticize "Anyone's" Photography Skills because I'm nowhere near being a professional...Only stating what I did knowing that taking photos of Nickeled Firearms can be a real chore at times...Even with a Light Box!!

As far as the Box itself...Regardless of what's there now...I can see where it did indeed originally have a Partition in it!! If you'd have expressed interest I can tell you there are places out there that could restore the Box back to where it would look never to have had a problem...With the only exception being the Label on top which likely just fell off over the course of time as most did...Rarely leaving any evidence one ever existed as I stated earlier!!

And to the Revolver's Condition...Even with what you mentioned...I'd still think most would consider 80-85% being a bit on the low side...Although observing it in-hand is the only realistic way to correctly estimate it!!

As far as your present interest not being that high...Maybe after it sits there for while they'll realize possibly it's priced a bit on the high side & ask you to make an offer...Good Luck should that happen!!

 

[MrTrolleyguy]

Thanks for all the good feedback. I have been attempting to rein in my gun purchasing with limited results. So I can honestly say I don't know what I will do.

The agonizing and the resulting suffering is half the fun of this hobby!

 

[glowe]

The good news is that with some nickel loss, you would not be reluctant to shoot it from time to time if you buy it. Modern standard issue 38 S&W ammunition will work just fine, but ammo is pricey. I reload for 38 S&W and shoot all my guns that handle this caliber.

Good luck.