3,26 pound double action Uber trigger Job - can u explain this?

[Silverbullit]

Stay with me mates, first off I need to clarify I'm not totally lost in the woods.
Since around 1985 I live breath and dream revolver shooting practice 23,9/7
(Yes mates because the spare time 0,1/7 I dream 1911&CZ Shadow)

Now I done my own embarrassing trigger jobs since I live in the desolate northern parts of Sweden beyond reach of civilisations postal services, I read numerous books and got some far beyond 150+ gunsmith videos and deluded myself I did decently with the ****ty tools I got availible until a couple of days ago...

I felt this trigger job on a revolver that I almost shat myself,
measured it with the electronic trigger weight pull scale,
now the single pull drops at precisely 1,52
BUT!!!
THE DOUBLE ACTION PULL DROPS AT 1,48 ! ! !
And it fires each and every primer every frikking time,
can somebody explain to me how this is even possible?!?

I am gasping after air because it feels like I watched a genuine wizard show with the most awesome magic number ever.

We are talking about an old school K38 PC with a 6 inch barrel and no underlug, only a little blop of metal that touches the end of the otherwise freely exposed ejector rod. (= No crane locks)
Of course I asked to see inside but that was a no go!
(The shooter in question had paid 7000 swedish crowns for the trigger job - prolly pretty exactly 900 us dollars if that says more - and was pretty obstinate nobody touch a screw on his precious)
However I could tell that the hammer was thinned down and somehow shimmed (Is shimmed the correct word in english mates?) and it had the kind of polished surface that leaves overlapping circles.
Something similiar had been done to the trigger however very cleverly concealed unless you looked really frikking close and knew what to look for.

Lets revisit the hammer, the K38 has the hammer with the built in firing pin. This K38 was so old school that this model did not originally even have the spring loaded built in firing pin, however I noticed this had been re-done so it had such a spring loading the firing pin.

The trigger had also received a trigger stop, now from what humbly could guess is that the trigger stop was made by a carefully cut to precise length metal rod placed inside the rebound spring. Maybe helps smoothing out the rebound spring action? I tried manipulating the cylinder lock button and hammer to estimate if the built in hammer pin was extended but I could not tell for certain. (No glasses)

I could also clearly see that the hammer block was still present.

The 38 special rounds are reloads all with comparatively soft Federal primers.

Now I must have missed something seriously important,
can you knowledged mates please please explain how on earth this was done???

HOW Can you have a 1,48kg - for reference thats 3,26284148 googled pounds - that ignites primers reliably?

Also the action feels incredible smooth, as in you know how you normally can tell each and every action building up during the trigger pull, the trigger snap in to the cylinder lock block, hand rotating the cylinder, the cylinder lock engaging, the hand pin engaging the open-the-cylinder bar yes you know everyting up until the trigger breaks - well it feels close to invisible - just a smooth action - then drop! I shoot decently fast and tried a couple of fast series, the trigger followed my finger like it was glued to it.

Now to the best part - this fellow drops he is about to do a tune-up to IMPROVE the trigger job!?!

I shot it... felt like a toy pistol come to life... incredible and then sum!
(Now my PC's feels like I'm driving an old tractor)

I dont have this kind of money and I can't sleep until somebody please explains how this was done...

Or am I stoopid, do you all have this kind of trigger job? What is the lightest working double action pull achieved?

help mates! (I'd really appreciate any fact or theory you care to share)

(PS I remember a many years ago there was hammer/trigger sets with different ergonomy, however I have it they removed the single action completely. I dont know whats going on here but I sure as xxxx would like in on it! Please mates somebody save me from the dark ages I'm apparantly lost in.)

 

[Hapworth]

Having followed many a competition trigger tune thread over at the Enos forum, and consistently found that those guys -- using every trick in the book -- generally don't like going below about 6lbs double action to avoid lightstrikes (using ammo handloaded to the revolver), I have to admit I'm incredulous at the notion that 3.25lbs double action pulls -- with consistent ignition -- are being achieved with only polishing and a lightened rebound spring, stock mainspring in place.

I'd like to know more...

 

[Jebus35745]

One of the guys that came to the NE Ohio bunch had a Registered Magnum with a very low DA pull. It was ordered from the factory like that. I was amazed, Larry

 

[Silverbullit]

I sounds like that K38 must have had a 12 pound rebound spring installed (maybe even a 13# rebound spring), and all metal to metal contact points smoothed out really nicely.

When I do that, I get about a 3.25 pound trigger pull double action, and consistent ignition of primers, and a SA trigger pull around 1.75 pounds. If I want to increase the trigger pull weight, like for competition, I put a 14# rebound spring in the revolver.

Your colleague probably smoothed out the internals better that I do to get the lighter SA trigger pull. If I do not smooth out the internals enough, a 12# rebound spring results in inconsistent trigger reset. Thus, I usually use 13# rebound springs, and always get perfect trigger reset.

You could reduce the trigger pull weight even more with a lightened mainspring, but in my experience, that causes inconsistent primer ignition. So, I would opine that the K38 we are discussing has the original weight main spring installed.

It is not magic.

There is a good reason why that K38 revolver is called a Target Masterpiece!

Dear Collector, with your kind reply I have to explain how I tuned my revolvers and explain how I experienced my fellow competitors triggerworks and example how other competitors experienced my homebrew trigger jobs. And yes frankly learning in the thread starting post - all with the delusional misapprehension that my trigger works are decent. (Not even come close to 1,48kg)
Oh yes and as in the first post explained they need to hold the legal competition minimum limit upon the singel action break of 1,36kg (2,998 pounds googled).

With this limitation above in mind I have done everything in Jerry Miculeks trigger job videos, everything Gene Shue teaches, everything in Jerry Kuhnhausens exhaustive book as simply in I have done everything I learned or could think benefitful judging from my own imperical experiments. I have REPLACED the original pins with mirror polished precise straight trigger/hammer pins and also of course shimmed triggers & hammer so they move freely without touching the mirror cut and polished inner surfaces. Lightened hammers for faster locktime. (experimented both ways with heavier hammers and found lighter is undoubtedly the road to follow for ignition and well... every conceivable positive outcome.)
Straightened yoke and ejector, tuned cylinder and breach face for hand, star and brass/primer engagement. I have done various other tweaks including cutting down the cylinder release bar spring and put crane locks to eliminate any drag from the cylinder, reduced the firing pin spring strength, extended firepins, tuned timing, I built a home made jig and re-cut hook-up angles, of course replaced the original MIM parts with machine steel parts that I even had re-heat-treated guaranteed through, HARDCROMED every and each part for ultimate smoothness(which upon I had some issues before I solved the lube troubles that followed), tweaked every spring including cylinder lock springs, the rebound springs I use are of the old 9 pound batch rebounds OR cut down 11 pound rebouns OR cut down ISMI rebounds. (Yes it follows during reset no matter what due to the rest of extensive trigger job) I tried each and every manufacturer leaf springs until I learned to custom make leaf springs. I cut down the cylinder lock notch to the proper angle in a jig to eliminate unecessary drag friction and ensure Uber cylinder lock reliability at fast speed shooting. I cleaned and polished the star, mounted competition hands that I fine tuned and high polished, I tuned the timing to early timing to clear the many issues it helps. I use one of the 10 lubes on the list, the one the US army uses for the chopper mounted gatling guns and the special red for the inside of the cylinder yoke that the initiated recommend ammend overtravel at fast shooting. Also of course I do not cut down the leaf spring screw, but I use locktite giving me 100% optimal fine tuning freedom and I cut down the rebounds for fine tuning as 99% hides in the rebound and of course re-do the last coil and clean out the block and insert a guide inside rebound. Check for any flaws such as grip-interference, rebound block & leaf spring binding asf. Actually I have done so much I cannot even begin explaining because I only remember a fraction right now...

The only thing - THE ONLY THING - I did not do is cut and mounted needle bearings for the trigger and the hammer as I have not find proper bearings nor have not seen a proper example neither for that part beleived much gain lays therein?

I have for the last 15 years of competition shooting had the lightest reliable double action pulls also holding the legal competition single action of the above mention 1,36kg/2,998pounds that I ever encountered. This is 100% reliable with Federal Primers also the softest and in other words most tune up friendly primers. Further I re-cut my primer seating tool to start the primers with a negative 0,25mm (Googled 0,00984251969 inches)below the surface that further helps ignition quite a lot.

My four S&W revolvers double action pull are close to identical 2,26kg or 4,98pounds, being my 617 having a slightly higher double action due to mixed rimfire reliability (mostly american eagle, cci, federal and norma) and the exception of neither having an extended firing pin that is plainly not optimal for dry firing even with snap caps that otherwise quickly gets chewed through and the exception legal 22lr single action trigger fall weight of 1kg which I set to 1,18kg due to variations in which judge responsible for weight in at competitions. To clarify my shock and example how collegues that I trust neutral/honest I need tell a fellow competitor and also one of europes most famous revolver gunsmits told me I had better trigger jobs than he ever had been close to achieving and told me could not make a single addition no matter how much money I offered and waved with his bushy eyebrows and added he should actually pay ME for flashing pure perfection. Also I done a few trigger jobs to help out you collegues locally as few has the means to have trigger jobs done due to desolate geography and well limitated means. Still it is perfectly clear I have missed something obvious or pherhaps even a lot... the last bit of the trigger weight is the toughest and man I am light years from 1,48kg DA...
I really appreciate your helpfulness and sharing explanations.
So now you really have my ear my friend!!!



But I need more as you successfully touched magical low numbers, how did you achieve your 3,25 pounds using heavier springs than I have, I am sitting here very confused?!?

Please, you really need to elaborate now mate ?!?

 

[Silverbullit]

Having followed many a competition trigger tune thread over at the Enos forum, and consistently found that those guys -- using every trick in the book -- generally don't like going below about 6lbs double action to avoid lightstrikes (using ammo handloaded to the revolver), I have to admit I'm incredulous at the notion that 3.25lbs double action pulls -- with consistent ignition -- are being achieved with only polishing and a lightened rebound spring, stock mainspring in place.

I'd like to know more...

Yep, that makes two of us mate

 

[Silverbullit]

This is ridicilious, I just set up a meet with the k38 owner for practice and to take pictures of at least the outside and when I pull my cellphone out of the charger it is dead - totally flatline dead! (Its a Note II) Hrmm... guess it'll be one of those weeks...

Anyhows I sure hope for some feedback from you mates!
And I do hope youre having a nice day wherever your range is

 

[KLNFrame]

It can be done. It's all in the way the hammer is modified ( You have to look real close to see it ) plus all the polishing of the rest of the parts.There's a Pistolsmith up in Brisbane, Australia who has a K frame with the firing pin on the hammer that has a under 4lb trigger pull on DA and fires 100% reliably with Federal Primers.