3.5" 460 vs 4" 500

[treillw]

I want to get a high powered, compact revolver for protection in the woods. I am considering the following two options along with a common snubby little .454 made by another manufacturer.

Product: Model S&W500™

Product: Model 460XVR™

The two Smiths are pretty much the same size and weight - the 500 is 1/4 longer and the 460 is 3.5oz heavier.

Now here is my question. If you were to shoot a round with identical energy out of each gun, would the perceived recoil be higher with the 460, since it doesn't have a muzzle compensator? I'm not sure why they don't make a snubby 460 with a compensator.

EDIT: I was thinking about my first question incorrectly. I am wondering about recoil differences in these two guns due to the compensator. They are essentially the same size and weight. The major differences that would contribute to differing recoil between the two would be cartridge and compensator. I would imagine that the 500 would kick less than the 460 until you started getting into some super hot 500 loads. Where that balance point is, I have no clue. My logic is that if I can shoot a hotter round out of the 500 comp with less recoil than the 460 would give me, I might as well go with the 500 comp. Can anyone offer any guidance on this? If they still made a snubby 460 with a comp, I'd probably just get that.

Second question. I am a reloader. Can you load down a 500 to make cartridges that are similar in performance to a 460? My only reason for doing this would be if the recoil on the 500 was just brutal - I wish I could find somebody who had one of these to let me test it out. I have shot my brothers 454 snubby and didn't have any problems with that and heavy loads.

Third question. How would you carry this revolver? I will be using it for hiking, hunting, and fishing. Is a chest rig the best option? Any product suggestions?

Last question. Does anyone make night sights for these guns?

Thank you!

 

[Chrisj357]

I want to get a high powered, compact revolver for protection in the woods. I am considering the following two options along with a common snubby little .454 made by another manufacturer.

Product: Model S&W500™

Product: Model 460XVR™

The two Smiths are pretty much the same size and weight - the 500 is 1/4 longer and the 460 is 3.5oz heavier.

Now here is my question. If you were to shoot a round with identical energy out of each gun, would the perceived recoil be higher with the 460, since it doesn't have a muzzle compensator? I'm not sure why they don't make a snubby 460 with a compensator.

Second question. I am a reloader. Can you load down a 500 to make cartridges that are similar in performance to a 460? My only reason for doing this would be if the recoil on the 500 was just brutal - I wish I could find somebody who had one of these to let me test it out. I have shot my brothers 454 snubby and didn't have any problems with that and heavy loads.

Third question. How would you carry this revolver? I will be using it for hiking, hunting, and fishing. Is a chest rig the best option? Any product suggestions?

Last question. Does anyone make night sights for these guns?

Thank you!

I have a 6.5" .500. The recoil is not brutal with full power 375grn hollow points. The two guys I know that had the short barrels got rid of them because they were no fun to shoot. If you are thinking chest holster you will be sorry you went for the snubby in my opinion. If you reload I think the .500 is your best choice. I recommend at least the 6".

 

[treillw]

I have a 6.5" .500. The recoil is not brutal with full power 375grn hollow points. The two guys I know that had the short barrels got rid of them because they were no fun to shoot. If you are thinking chest holster you will be sorry you went for the snubby in my opinion. If you reload I think the .500 is your best choice. I recommend at least the 6".

I really don't think I would want to go bigger than the 4" barrel. The gun is already a tank (IMO) to lug 15 miles around the mountains in a day. If I was going to use it at the range only or as a designated hunting gun, I'm sure the longer barrel would be a better option. This is going to be a gun that I carry every time I go into the woods and hopefully never have to use.

You seem to hint at the possibility of carrying a snubby on your hip. Is this doable, or is it just too much cumbersome weight on your belt? In a way I would like to have it on my hip more - It would be out of the way of bowstrings, binoculars, etc.

 

[ruggyh]

I want to get a high powered, compact revolver for protection in the woods. I am considering the following two options along with a common snubby little .454 made by another manufacturer.

Protection from what?

Do you plan to wear hearing protection when in the woods? These rounds will damage hearing with a single round.

The two Smiths are pretty much the same size and weight - the 500 is 1/4 longer and the 460 is 3.5oz heavier.

Now here is my question. If you were to shoot a round with identical energy out of each gun, would the perceived recoil be higher with the 460, since it doesn't have a muzzle compensator? I'm not sure why they don't make a snubby 460 with a compensator.

First they did produce a 3.5" 460 with compensator - it is SKU 170268

and yes when all things equal a lighter gun will have more recoil.

A better comparison would be with the 460 V 5"

Second question. I am a reloader. Can you load down a 500 to make cartridges that are similar in performance to a 460? My only reason for doing this would be if the recoil on the 500 was just brutal - I wish I could find somebody who had one of these to let me test it out. I have shot my brothers 454 snubby and didn't have any problems with that and heavy loads.

You can load the 500 to similar energy levels as the 460 and you can load 460 to higher energy level.

Even at the same energy level there will be difference in recoil between a 460 and 500 due to twist rate and bullet to bullet riding area.

Third question. How would you carry this revolver? I will be using it for hiking, hunting, and fishing. Is a chest rig the best option? Any product suggestions?

I use cross chest rigs most of the time when hunting

look at the numerous past post for more information

Last question. Does anyone make night sights for these guns?

Thank you!

Yes, try LPA


First I am a big X-frame fan and hunt and shoot them a lot.

They do require an investment in ammo to be proficient.
If you cannot shoot a gun with accuracy it is not going to serve you poorly in a protection event.

Go shoot them before you buy and get over the wow factor before you decide. the Wow factor is not going to matter in a protection situation.

Go thru the previous last couple years of post and these questions have been covered in detail.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[treillw]

Protection from what?

Do you plan to wear hearing protection when in the woods? These rounds will damage hearing with a single round.

Protection from anything roaming out there that means me or anybody else harm.

Yes, I do plan on getting electronic hearing protection that will be used while hunting. It would be a little cumbersome to use it all the time, say while fishing and hiking. I guess loosing a little hearing is better than being dead in the long run though.

and yes when all things equal a lighter gun will have more recoil.

My question is more directed at the compensator. I guess my original question was incorrect. If you shoot a standard high power 460 round without a compensator and then you shoot a standard high power 500 round with a compensator, which would have a higher felt recoil?

Thank you for all your help!

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

I have the 4 inch. If you will get you a military shoulder holster for a 1911 and remove the inside stitches, leaving the outside ones intact, it fits PERFECT. I have been using one now for about 2 years, works GREAT. Costs about 20-30 dollars at gun shows and on line. If you want to get really nice El Paso Saddlery makes one that is on EB a lot for $90.

 

[treillw]

Anybody live around Helena, MT that would be willing to let me test out a few rounds on either gun? I would really like to shoot one before dropping all the money.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

-I'm not sure why they don't make a snubby 460 with a compensator.
-I have shot my brothers 454 snubby and didn't have any problems with that and heavy loads.

If you shot a 454C snubby (SRH Alaskan?), & you were good with it, then you should haven't a problem with the 460.

Bullet weight makes a big difference in recoil, obviously. With 300grs. the common divide between the two cartridges the lower you go from that point the lighter the recoil in the 460, IMO. Anything over 400grs. in the 500 is more of a handful.

If you'll be handloading (desirable) you can make either cartridge shoot like you want. Plenty of options, just depends on your needs.

You can always have your snubby ported if you still felt the desire, or need. My ported 460 Carry has less recoil than my 500ES but I generally don't shoot heavier than 250grs in it too.

.

.

.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO the 500 Magnum is a great hunting revolver as is the 460 Magnum. The 500 will allow you to shoot much heavier bullet than the 460 but the 460 can shoot several other rounds. While the 460 shoots lighter bullets it also generates higher velocities and shoots flatter. The 460 is more versatile since it will also fire 45 Colt and 454 Casull ammo but for your use I think you will be better served with that 454 snub nose from that other company.

The question is, do you really need a 454, 460 or 500? As you yourself said, they are heavy to carry all day in the mountains and you might leave it behind sometimes. Would a lighter 44 Magnum like the snub nose M629 be a better choice loaded with a quality ammo?

The 4" 500 Magnum weighs 56.5 oz empty
The 3.5" 460 Magnum weighs 59.5 oz empty
The snub nose 454 Casull weighs 45 oz empty
The 2.625" M629 44 Magnum weighs only 39.6 oz and is small than all the others especially the two X-Frames. The .44 Magnum for some reason is no longer thought of as a potent cartridge, it is. Add the fact it's more controllable, hits in a life threatening situation are required. I'm just wondering if the M629 would fit your needs. If no I would go with the 454 Casull snub nose.

 

[shocker]

Would a lighter 44 Magnum like the snub nose M629 be a better choice loaded with a quality ammo?

Or a Model 69 at 37 oz. If I thought a 240 gr XTP at 1200 fps wasn't enough I'd sling up at least a 308 or 12 gauge.

 

[treillw]

I was thinking about my first question incorrectly. I am wondering about recoil differences in these two guns due to the compensator. They are essentially the same size and weight. The major differences that would contribute to differing recoil between the two would be cartridge and compensator. I would imagine that the 500 would kick less than the 460 until you started getting into some super hot 500 loads. Where that balance point is, I have no clue. My logic is that if I can shoot a hotter round out of the 500 comp with less recoil than the 460 would give me, I might as well go with the 500 comp. Can anyone offer any guidance on this? If they still made a snubby 460 with a comp, I'd probably just get that.

 

[ruggyh]

I was thinking about my first question incorrectly. I am wondering about recoil differences in these two guns due to the compensator. They are essentially the same size and weight. The major differences that would contribute to differing recoil between the two would be cartridge and compensator. I would imagine that the 500 would kick less than the 460 until you started getting into some super hot 500 loads. Where that balance point is, I have no clue. My logic is that if I can shoot a hotter round out of the 500 comp with less recoil than the 460 would give me, I might as well go with the 500 comp. Can anyone offer any guidance on this? If they still made a snubby 460 with a comp, I'd probably just get that.

The recoil is different between the two guns - not just in muzzle rise but in impulse also. The 500 impulse is stronger and you will feel it your palm - not so much with a 460. Removing the comp for any of these guns increase the impulse compared to having a comp installed on any of the 460s. The shorter the barrel the more impulse you will have. It is more apparent in the 500.

For your stated purpose you don't need to shoot hot loads in either cartridge.

Either caliber typically exits any animal, penetration won't be an issue with proper bullet selection.

Shoot a couple boxes through each caliber before you buy one.

and shooting these without hearing protection is going to do more than a little damage to your hearing.

I own,shoot, and hunt with every barrel length 460 and most of the 500s.
They are no different than any other caliber when it comes to being effective, it require good shoot placement and the correct bullet for the application.

If you cannot make a commitment to regular practice then I would pick a different caliber.


Good luck and be safe
Ruggy

 

[chief38]

I may be by myself here but a .44 Magnum with a 5" or 6" bbl would be a much better way to go.

I have fired a 4" ported .500 Magnum to the tune of around 200 rounds and what bothered me the most was not the recoil - but the noise. Outdoors it is quite annoying and indoors it is prohibitive - even with double ear protection! I will never again shoot one - OK call me a wuss...... but the noise is more than I want to be subjected to at this point.

A .44 magnum with a 5 or 6" tube will protect you more than adequately enough with proper training and good loads. The report of a .44 Magnum is a lot easier on the ears than the .500 and ammo is certainly a lot less expensive. If you want to plink with the .44 Mag all you need to do is to shoot .44 Specials or down load the Magnum loads if you hand load.

At the end of the day I think the .44 is just a whole lot more practical and would be used a lot more than a .500 or even the .460.

YMMV

 

[Hfrog355]

My post isn't going to be the direction you're looking to go, but I thought I'd add a few thoughts to the discussion.

Your stated use is a gun that you will be taking on long treks in the mountains and hopefully never have to use. You mention hunting, fishing and hiking as the activities you'll use it for. I'm going to assume the gun's role in hunting trips is as a back up gun for your personal safety, not a primary weapon to take game.

If all this is true, I think you should take a close look at the 329PD. It is less than half the weight of the 500 and 460 which makes it an easy winner from a portability standpoint. Ballistically, you're definitely not playing the same game as the X-frame calibers, but the 44 magnum is by no means a slouch. The round can be loaded quite hot and you've got 6 shots vs 5. While you have said you won't be shooting this gun much, practice (which I assume you will do with the new gun at least a little bit) will be significantly less expensive and a good bit more enjoyable.

The reality is that you're unlikely to ever have to deploy the gun you're looking at buying in a defensive situation. You're essentially looking at buying a few extra pounds of metal to carry on your hike with the added benefit of being able to defend yourself. To me, the lighter you can get for 15 miles, the better.

 

[Lee's Landing Billy]

Treillw:

absolute recoil is a function of bore or base area. This means a larger diameter bore will "kick" harder even at equal pressures and forward kinetic energies!
The very BEST example is the 20K psi .45 ACP "kick" versus the 33K psi 9mm "kick." The .45 ACP is KNOWN to kick hard, whereas the 9mm is generally considered mild in recoil. Of course there are many other factors involved not easily explained but the point is, generally speaking, all things equal, a bigger bore means a bigger KICK!

The .460 Magnum has VERY low recoil in a standard 8-3/8" barrel with recoil comp...the NOISE will damage your left ear, but the kick won't bother you much.

The .500 Magnum has a MUCH more stout recoil because generally it's launching a LARGER DIAMETER, heavier projectile. Bear in mind that expanding gases press equally in all directions...a larger base means more pressure directly against the breech face, thus recoil.

But it ain't that simple. The 3.5" .460 has no compensator, whereas the 4" barrel .500 is in reality a 3" barrel with 1" of comp! Recoil comps work on the principal of gas velocity (chamber pressure) and powder weight. BOTH cartridges are capable of beyond normal chamber pressures...the .500 Magnum is rated to 60,000 psi, and the .460 Magnum is rated to 65,000 psi so both are pushing plenty of volume at ample speed to make a comp "work". Except, only the .500 HAS ONE! And yes, it DOES work!

The other reason super-short barrels work without comps is simply "time"...the bullet is "gone" from the barrel so quickly, acceleration time is short, and thus recoil impulse is limited.

At the end of the day it comes down to what YOU perceive as beneficial.

The .460 3.5" can shoot the .45 Colt, and .454 magnum, as well as the .460 Magnum. BUT the .460 3.5" tips the scales at just over 60 ounces thanks to it's non-fluted cylinder!

The .500 4" only shoots ONE caliber...500 Magnum, though many power loadings are factory available and prices have definitely come down! It HAS a functional compensator, and it weighs just 57 ounces! It's about the same weight as a Ruger Redhawk long barrel .44 magnum, yet it eclipses the .44 Magnum in every category! A 4" barrel .500 magnum can deliver a ONE OUNCE SLUG at over 2,000 lb-ft of kinetic energy...something no .44 caliber ever can out of a 4" tube! In fact, from a 4" barrel the .44 magnum is looking at around 750-800 lb-ft of KE...and that's a HOT load that the user will NOT like shooting.

As much as I love the look and lines of the new .460 XVR 3.5" it's not the "better" choice over the monster .500 magnum 4". It's barrel is shorter, yet overall 3 ounces heavier. Yes it can shoot the .45 Colt and .454 Casull, and those are less expensive, but really, how many people buy a .460 and stand around at the range banging away with .45 Colt loads? Seriously?
IF I was thinking only "one" I'd pick the S&W .500 4" everyday including sunday! You can find good prices on loads from 275 grains up to 700 grains. You can EASILY load your own and cut your costs by half. IF all you do is load to the "1,000 fpe" level, the cases will NEVER wear out.

I look at the .460 3.5" for a premium price over the .500 4"....nah, not worth it...UNLESS you plan on owning one of EVERY X-frame...then go for it!

Absolute recoil is a factor of pressure needed to move a specific mass at a specific velocity. Recoil is LESS the larger the base of the projectile is. MORE area to disperse pressure. The 9mm- 45 acp recoil difference is because you are moving a bullet that weighs TWICE as much, 230 vs 115. We have spent $1,000s to lay in pressure equipment and Doplar radar to help small ammo companies with their pressure testing. If 20,000 lbs is used to push a .357 and a .45 to the exact velocity, and the bullets weigh the same, say 200 grains, guess which one will recoil more? The .357, because the base more constricts the pressure more than the area of the .45. To compare things, first, they should start on equal footing or you will end up with apples and grapefruits. We can test your ammo for pressure and velocity if you really want to know what your loads are doing. And now for the 460-500 insofar as flat shooting. When compared with EQUAL weight bullets, the 500 can always be pushed faster, hence, flatter shooting. This assumes equal length barrel and MAXIMUM charge for each. These guys ARE RIGHT, try any model of S&W 44 mag.

 

[da gimp]

In the last 2 weeks or so, 2 different men have used handguns to kill attacking grizzly bears at close range.. the 1st was at 3 yds with a semi-auto S&W 9mm with heavy hard cast Buffalo Bore ammo, the second was killed by what looked like a S&W model 66 .357 magnum at the muzzle touching bear range as the bear attacked a game warden.

My advice is to carry the handgun you are most efficient with in accurate rapid fire.... example 3 hits in the neck or brain with a .357 magnum, are far more effective than a single or double poorly aimed shot with a .500 S&W, .460S&W, .454 Casul or even a .45 Colt/ .44mag if you have not truly mastered the heavier calibres.

As was said above, you must buy/load and shoot enough ammo in those big bore handguns to be accurate with them, then fire even more ammo thru them to be adept with one in a crises situation.

This will cost a goodly amount of money & a lot of time to develop the high level of skill needed with a handgun that is intended to save your life.. or another's life. If you cannot truly master one of those big bores, chose a smaller bore that you can master..

 

[dwever]

.44 Magnum Performance Center 629 with 2.625" Barrel.

 

[ruggyh]

Well, we've opened this one up to all kinds of opinions!...Does it REALLY take a brain surgeon, or a rocket scientist to understand what those numbers mean? If so I pity the fool....

Kinetic energy does not kill- bullet construction and shoot place with penetration get the job done. Numbers only are relevant when these things happen-period.

If you have been there then you should know a grizzly moving at 35 plus mph is not an easy target. An animal at 60 yards will be your face in 3 seconds- shorter time than most can even identify an issue not alone react.

The best bear defense is understanding bear behavior and a cool head.

Yes I shoot x-frames- but there is a lot more to it than carry a big gun.

If you a going to carry a gun any gun, you need to be proficient regardless of caliber or type.

It was stated in several post above but I will repeat it

This will cost a goodly amount of money & a lot of time to develop the high level of skill needed with a handgun that is intended to save your life.. or another's life. If you cannot truly master one of those big bores, chose a smaller bore that you can master..

and yes I have been there

be safe
Ruggy

 

[cowboy4evr]

John Linebaugh , carries a 4" S&W 25 in 45 LC . He has posted several articles on the great qualities of the gun and the caliber . He lives in Wyoming and goes into the wilds on occasions , hunting etc .
A grizzly running at 35 mph , that is about 50 feet / second . A friend of mine is a LEO , over 30yrs , teaches tactical training tells me that it takes the human about 1.5 seconds for the eye to see a situation and the brain to process what the eye is seeing . The bear has now covered about 75 feet before you can comprehend the situation . You need to practice and practice a lot with whatever you buy . The caliber will not be the determining factor , you and your experience level will make the difference .
A grizzly killed a hunter , his guide and the pilot while absorbing 6 rounds from a 44 magnum . Another grizzly was killed with just a 22 rifle , one shot in the eye ( definitely a lucky shot ) . Now do you get the idea of what I'm telling you . Practice -practice - practice . I'm not talking about standing there at the range going , bang----bang---bang while shooting at a target 7yds away that is not moving . Your adrenaline is not flowing , you are not experiencing ' gray out " and your taking all the time you want in between shots . I would suggest a tactical training course with whatever you decide to carry . You will have to learn to shoot while moving , close and further out , and empty the gun in 7 seconds, or less . I have been through just such a training course . It taught me a lot and made me realize I needed a whole lot more tactical training using my S&W 29 -with 44 mag loads. Good Luck

 

[THEWELSHM]

Well, we've opened this one up to all kinds of opinions!

IF I were thinking ".44 Magnum" for a field carry backup, I'd immediately TOSS the idea and grab EITHER:
My Glock G-20 10mm with 6" barrel launching 16 rounds of 220 grain hard cast at 750 fpe per round for 12,000 fpe total. That's a LOT of close-range, ANYTHING-stopping power if the shooter does their part!
Next: Glock G-20 with Long Slide upper fitted with a 6.61" .460 Rowland barrel! This thing will sling 255 grain Underwood hard cast slugs at JUST UNDER 1,200 fpe! And it will sling SIXTEEN of them before needing to reload! The G-460 weighs only 32 ounces unloaded...or five ounces LESS than the S&W M-69, while holding 16 shots versus 5!!!!
DIRECT chronograph tests between the 6" barrel Desert Eagle in .44 Mangum verus my G-460R in .460 Rowland proves the numbers.

Desert Eagle .44 Magnum 6"with 8 shots, PMC 180 grain - 1,575 fps

Glock .460R 6.61" 16 shots, Underwood 185 grain - 1,750 fps

A Glock converted to .460 Rowland can put 20,000 lb-ft of KE downrange FAST! Yet, it's light, easy to carry, holds a LOT of ammo, has amazingly modest recoil. There is not another handgun delivery system that can rival it for total KE delivered!

Does it REALLY take a brain surgeon, or a rocket scientist to understand what those numbers mean? If so I pity the fool....

BUT, if I'm welded to the revolver concept where I KNOW I've got "five on tap" in an emergency, then my FIRST choice will be the 57 ounce M-500 S&W Magnum 4".
My SECOND choice will be the 60 ounce M-460V 5".

Fired into the FACE of a charging Grizzly, a 440 grain .500 magnum slug at over 2,000 lb-ft of KE WILL cause "her" to stop. There can be no other outcome if the shooter does their part and puts the shot directly into the FACE. A Grizzly face, skull, jaw, forehead, etc., simply does NOT have enough mass to stop the .500 caliber round from passing clean through at high speed (above supersonic), and causing massive, INSTANT destruction that renders the animal incapable of continuing the attack.

Now for all the "story-tellers" who recount "sagas"of those attacked by Grizzlies and found dead -clutching their M-500 handgun, the part LEFT OUT is that the "victim" missed the shot(s)! That ain't the gun's fault!

IF the Grizzly stops and rears up, the kill is even easier because an upward blast will blow the entire skull apart...I don't care HOW "bad" a bear is, when her head is blasted open, SHE stops!

How do "I" know? Because I've been there...if YOU have the "suds" to stand your ground and put your shots in the face, YOU WIN...period, all BS stories aside.

ANY shot made within ANY anecdotal story where a .22LR or a 9mm stopped a Grizzly, means a much wider range of hit parameters with a .500 Mag would have done the same...only BETTER and without "chance" being part of the equation.

I wouldn't take a bottom feeder into the woods for protection, I do however agree with the statements about the 500 you make.

thewelshm