30/30 cast lead, low velocity experiment, not going so well..

[canoeguy]

Thanks to the generosity of forum members here, I was able to gather up enough 30/30 brass to start experimenting with cast lead bullets at pistol velocitys, say 1000 FPS or so. Got some 165 grain RNFP cast lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Company, tried some with Unique pistol powder first, 8.0 -9.5 grains. Poor accuracy, and bullet impact was lower than point of aim by 6" at 50 yards.

Then I tried some Trail Boss powder, 8.0 grains. Got good groups with Trail Boss, like 1.5 inches at 50 yards, but still unacceptably low, 6-8 inches. I'd like to find a cast lead load that will hit the same point of impact as 150 grain factory jacketed bullets, which the rifle is sighted in for now, POI=POA at 50 yards.

So, do I need to try a heavier or lighter bullet? My instincts tell me to go heavier, but I would like to hear from others that have tried the same thing.....

Thanks,

Canoeguy

 

[OKFC05]

From my experience with such loads, ROTSA RUCK!!

Quick solution is to count the clicks to change the sights, write it on a card and tape it to the stock.

 

[358wcf]

Sir,
I've done pretty much the same years ago- I was using a 150gr lead bullet, plain base, and 10.5-12grains of Unique. With the slightly higher velocity of this load (still pretty low), the bullet strike is much closer to POA.

Good luck on a worthwhile project.

358wcf

 

[mstuhr]

1977 Gun Digest

Howdy Canoeguy,
I have an old GunDigest that has an article where the author uses 48 grn. cast round balls in his 30-30 and between 7 and 15 grains of 4198. Also he recomends 14 grains of 3031.
For real light, quiet plinking rounds (He claims they hit at the top of his front post at 25 yards) He recomends 3 grains of Buillseye or five grains of Unique but says you should press half a sheet of toilet paper over the powder charge prior to seating a ball.
It's a great article if you have anyone around you that might have a 77 Gundigest you would probably enjoy the article.
Good luck
Mike

 

[Noah Zark]

. . . Got some 165 grain RNFP cast lead bullets from Missouri Bullet Company, tried some with Unique pistol powder first, 8.0 -9.5 grains. Poor accuracy, and bullet impact was lower than point of aim by 6" at 50 yards.

So, do I need to try a heavier or lighter bullet? My instincts tell me to go heavier, but I would like to hear from others that have tried the same thing.....

Thanks,

Canoeguy

Your charge weight is too low for what you're trying to do with that bullet weight, IMO and experience. I would suggest upping the charge to 10.5 to 11.0 grains of Unique. That's what I use for cast bullets averaging 168-170 gr in my 30-30s, and at 50 yds I get groups averaging 1" or less with open sights. One Winchester and two Marlins will do better, one Marlin is always about 0.5" to 0.75" larger in group size at 50 yds. Could be that I don't have all the copper fouling out of the bore.

As for finding a load that impacts the same POI for a given POA as a factory load, well, you can't fool the laws of physics. You can get close if not exactly the same at short ranges like 25-50 yds, but to get the POI to be exactly the same as that of a factory load of identical weight (mass) at longer ranges you'll need essentially the same velocity as that factory load. So if you shoot those light-loaded cast bullets at longer ranges, just keep record of your sight settings and just move them as needed.

 

[canoeguy]

Noah,

Yes, this will be a 50 yard maximum load. I imagine a low velocity cast lead bullet will be dropping pretty fast after 50 yards.

I had good luck loading such a round a few years ago for an Ishapore .308 rifle. I think that was 9.5 grains Unique with a 155 grain cast lead, gas check bullet. At 50 yards, it would shoot the same point of impact as 150 grain FMJ surplus rounds. I used it to hunt Nutria (big water rats, weighed up to 25 pounds) from a canoe, in and around the marshes of Coastal North Carolina. That rifle and ammo combination was deadly on Nutria, it was like shooting a 9 1/2 pound .357.

 

[Crazy K38]

I am not a reloader by any means, but my thought is if you want to stay with that charge you may need custom bullets, very light but not light enough for wind to drastically effect and made like a wadcutter for impact and accuracy, like I said I am not a reloader just made a theory

 

[David Sinko]

At this moment I am trying to accomplish the very same thing with the .30-30 barrel of my scoped Savage 24F combo gun. I am casting a 150 gr. bullet with gas check from a Lee mold and while I can make good full power loads, getting reduced loads that shoot to the same point of impact is a real challenge. I recently had good luck with SR7625 in the .30-06 so I'll try it in the .30-30 just as soon as I can cast up some more bullets.

Dave Sinko

 

[buck460XVR]

So, do I need to try a heavier or lighter bullet? My instincts tell me to go heavier, but I would like to hear from others that have tried the same thing.....

In my experience with handguns, heavier bullets tend to hit higher cause they say in the barrel longer......but this is @ 50 yards.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Then I tried some Trail Boss powder, 8.0 grains. Got good groups with Trail Boss, like 1.5 inches at 50 yards, but still unacceptably low, 6-8 inches. I'd like to find a cast lead load that will hit the same point of impact as 150 grain factory jacketed bullets, which the rifle is sighted in for now, POI=POA at 50 yards.
Thanks,
Canoeguy

With a 165gr Cast bullet I think you will get better results using H4198 and possibly get your POA closer to your POI of that jacketed factory load. I would think a starting charge of 14.6gr will do. (always check data you see on the Internet for yourself. Trust no one because mistakes can and will happen)

 

[okie john]

In the 30/06, Finn Aagaard used 25 gr. IMR-4198 under a 100-grain Speer or Hornady bullet for 1,800 fps. He also used a 150-grain FMJ over 41 grains of IMR 3031 for 2,300 fps. According to an old article, both loads shot to POA for his big-game load. I know that's not exactly what you had in mind, but it may lead you down a useful trail.

This is from Pet Loads by Ken Waters.

Okie John

 

[Bruce51]

Canoeguy what gun are you shooting? A Marlin with a microgroove barrel or a Winchester?
The Marlin will be a real stinker unless the bullet has a lot of bearing surface. I use 10 grains of Unique with 150grain bullet. The 165 I tried would keyhole. It is best with 180 grain bullet and 20 grains of IMR4198. That is an 1800fps load. Tell us what gun your shooting as it makes a difference. Bruce

 

[Paul5388]

I use 15-16 gr of Alliant 2400 with a Lyman 311291. The Handi rifle has rifling similar to the Marlin, so around 1500-1600 fps was what I was trying to achieve. I don't think I have any groups saved, but it will shoot 1-1 1/2" at 100 yards with a scope.

 

[canoeguy]

Bruce,

The rifle is a Winchester "Ranger", 20" barrel. I think I will try faster velocity with the 165 grain bullets before buying any others. The Trail Boss load I tried at 8.0 grains is around 1100 FPS (according to the Hodgdon on-line reloading data), I'll try a maximum load of Trail Boss, 9.0 grains for 1200 FPS. If that doesn't work, I'll get some real rifle powder like 4895 or 3031 and get into the 1300-1500 FPS range.

 

[Calaveras Slim]

Your charge weight is too low for what you're trying to do with that bullet weight, IMO and experience. I would suggest upping the charge to 10.5 to 11.0 grains of Unique. That's what I use for cast bullets averaging 168-170 gr in my 30-30s, and at 50 yds I get groups averaging 1" or less with open sights. One Winchester and two Marlins will do better, one Marlin is always about 0.5" to 0.75" larger in group size at 50 yds. Could be that I don't have all the copper fouling out of the bore.

As for finding a load that impacts the same POI for a given POA as a factory load, well, you can't fool the laws of physics. You can get close if not exactly the same at short ranges like 25-50 yds, but to get the POI to be exactly the same as that of a factory load of identical weight (mass) at longer ranges you'll need essentially the same velocity as that factory load. So if you shoot those light-loaded cast bullets at longer ranges, just keep record of your sight settings and just move them as needed.

+1 with NOAH ZARK. I am running 11 gr of Unique behind a cast 150gr with gas check and get almost pin point accuracy with it. Bearing in mind, Open sights and 65 year young eyes

 

[greenmachine]

This may or may not be relevant but I asked the following question about lead bullets in .32-40 and .32 Winchester on another forum:

I have some Oregon Trail Laser-Cast 170g RN FP .322 bullets to use in my Winchester lever guns. They are shooting OK with 8 or 9 grains of Unique but I'm not able to get enough elevation to center them on the target even at 50 yards. What kind of load should I use to get more velocity but not risk leading? I'm worried because these are not gas check bullets. Should I try a heavier charge of Unique or maybe try some 4895? Thanks.

And got the following answer:

Try 27 grains 4895 for one shot. If no leading, OK. If traces after about 7 shots, use 25 grains, plus a dab of toilet paper to cover powder, poke into case with pencil eraser end without compression, and add shotgun plastic filler to half way up the neck. Compress bullet into place. ...

I have not tried this yet, but I have tried 173 grain cast gas check bullets with 25 grains of 4895 in a .308 with excellent results. I read somewhere that you can use 60 percent of the max load of 4895 with cast bullets in most of these cartridges with good success. I did not use filler with the .308 load.

 

[epj]

I used that same 173 gr bullet years back powered by a modest dose of 3031. Seems like the velocity was around 1800. Shot very well from an old Winchester.

 

[Paul5388]

A good site for reduced loads is http://www.gmdr.com/lever/lowveldata.htm. The velocity and group size is recorded, which is helpful in seeing where to begin.

 

[Mr.Fixxah]

Cast Bullets?

I go http://castboolits.gunloads.com/forumdisplay.php?f=8here for anything related to casting or loading cast bullets. It can't hurt.

 

[Pine Cone2]

The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook recommends ...

151 grain cast lead bullet 7.5 to 11.0 grains of Unique.
169 grain cast lead bullet 7.0 to 10.6 grains of Unique.

No listings for Trail Boss