30 Super Carry

[Biggfoot44]

I probably already commented earlier in this thread , but in light of the other currently active thread , I'll readdress here .

I like and appreciate hot .32s . Historically , look at the percentage of pre WWII M&Ps in .32-20 vs .38Spl , and their popularity with outdoorsmen and LE ( and classic Blues songs ) .

That said , put anything in .30SC on your list of current production guns to buy now because they will be Collectables in relatively near future .

Add .30SC to the list of calibers that actually are worthwhile calibers , but are either too niche , or too ahead of their time to resonate with the general buying public .

I revel enough in the Intresting & Obscure , that I'd enjoy a .30SC PCC . But realistically , that's reinventing the wheel to essentially duplicating the .32WSL and the .30 Carbine .

 

[ArchAngelCD]

IMO the .41 Magnum didn't take hold because at the time LE was transitioning to semi-auto and the 9mm. Like said above, the .41 Magnum was designed to be more than the .357 Magnum with less recoil than then.44 Magnum. It did achieve that task but it was a victim of timing.

I don't think the 30 SC will catch on in any big numbers because of the need to change guns. In today's environment there just isn't the funds to change from a perfectly good platform. (although it has been done many times before)

 

[s537]

I recently watched a Forgotten Weapons video on you tube about the .30 SC. The host, Ian McCallum reviewed the cartridge in the Shield +. The review was more about the cartridge than the pistol. Ian did a detailed comparison between the .30 SC and the 7.65 French Long cartridge which is dimensionally almost identical.

Ian liked the Shield + but in his opinion the .30 SC would really shine as a subgun and or PCC round. I thought that was an interesting idea.

I saw him use that recently at a BUG match. It worked great and the capacity was awesome for what it was. If the round has the power and the bullet has a reliable design I think it is a cool addition to our cartridge option list. Higher cost is bad for the end user though. Time will tell right?

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I thought .41 came out in '64 and PDs didn't change to autos en masse until the '80s. No?

That's possible, I can be wrong and often am.

For some reason I seem to remember something like that but as I'm posting I looked it up and you are correct, sorry...

 

[Skeet 028]

I remember the time well. Heck the dept I dealt with was changing from 38 to 357 in the 70's but there was a transition period. The cops I knew were talking of the 41 mag at the time too. There was some pushback on the 41 because most depts didn't think that the new recruits(women) could handle the 357 much less the 41. It was a much less enlightened time and women were really starting to enter new fields of endeavors. We started hiring women in the fire service too. But the physical requirements for FD work were more stringent than police work and it took longer for us. Most of the female police officers I encountered in those times were pretty much able to handle their duties well(except maybe knock down drag out fights...but they learned....and they hired more police officers. Then all the stuff hit the fan and the lead police agency changed calibers and really killed off the 41 for police use. I carried a 357 as a fire investigator... a job I only did for a short period of time. Thankfully. I seem to remember the State Police had gone to 9s by then...or were about to.

I knew 2 cops at the time that used the 41. I don't remember too much but one needed some "serious" ammo and I got him some 210 gr mag jacketed stuff. Both those cops were "gun guys" though

 

[StakeOut]

I'm hoping the 30SC takes off and bullets in .312-.314 for reloading become more plentiful from more sources.
Maybe some 100gr plated from Berry's and Xtreme that I can use in 32 H&R Magnum.

 

[Biggfoot44]

No , it was the 9mm Federal ( Rimmed) t that was wrong time to get blindsided by the unfirseeably rapid sudden takeover by Wondernines . If the changeover had either been more gradual , or occurred 5 years later , the 9mm Federal would have been at least a medium hit . Useable in existing medium and smallish frame platforms , more powerful than .38 +P+ , but less recoil than .357 Mag , AND didn't have the still somewhat politically sensitive name " Magnum " . Back in almost day , and friend and co-worker bought a 9mm Fed on close out pricung , liked it very much , and continued to carry it, until he could no longer buy ammo from local sources .

No , it was improved .38 Spec ammo , and lesser extent improved .357 that killed .41 Magnum .

Upgading caliber seemed paramount , when the baseline was 158 RNL . Improved ammo with usually expanding HP bullets made the rank & file LE opinions that .38+P became sufficiently adaquate , and .357 125 an Apex load .

What If .41Mag had more/ different loads offered back in day ? Let's say HP Bullets of 170 to 200gr , at velocities along the spectrum of what we later associated with .40 S&W to 10mm ? Probably wouldn't have become #1 most popular LE gun , but would have had 5 to 10 times the sales , and had modest to medium popularity with both LE , and general shooting public .

 

[Biggfoot44]

* I * am sufficiently convinced that .30SC terminal performance overlaps into 9x19 std pressure JHP , aka a level of sufficiently acceptable to be a creditable primary pistol . Then add the flatter long range trajectory and higher sectional density , and brings us back to the historical analogy to .32-20 vs .38 Spl . Just like my Father in the late 1930's with his Police Positive Special .32-20 , I'd seen the light about .30SC .

But I'm an outlier . It would be a steep challenge for an advertising department to convince the general public to disbuse them of the ( usually correct) notion that Bigger is Better . So far , the gun mfgs are betting on a cpl more rounds magizine capacity in same sized pistols . Admittedly , I place less importance on that factor than the average buy ,but that's still a steep task . I'm not sure if it's mechanically possible , but a unique sized platform , that simultaneously captures the fancy of the general buying public might long term assure success of .30SC . Maybe grip frame size of a Shield , porportionally thinner slide , bbl length of close to 4 inches , to evoke the spirit of a Colt 1903 on turbo boost ?

If the general buying public were amenable to the concept of fast smaller caliber vs the usual standard caliber , then .327 Federal would have taken over 1/3 of the sales from .38 Special revolvers instead of being an obscure niche enthusiast caliber .

I know it seems kinda schizophrenic for me to seemingly praise and damn the .30SC . I'd enjoy having one as much as I'd enjoy having a .41 Special . But the mass market won't agree with me . They'll just ask " what can this new caliber do for me , that I care about , that my compact polymer 9mn can't ? "

Thus , I predict commercial succuess somewhat better than .45GAP , but less so than .357 Sig . I'd love to be proved wrong , but it would take a lot of luck and great advertising campaign to reach the level od commercial succuess of the .357 Sig .

 

[Gamecock]

Market success will depend on gun store clerks. Millions of new, first time gun buyers will be easy pickins.

For an introductory pistol, it has good qualities. But it is neither 'Super,' nor good for 'Carry.'

 

[rosewood]

Market success will depend on gun store clerks. Millions of new, first time gun buyers will be easy pickins.

For an introductory pistol, it has good qualities. But it is neither 'Super,' nor good for 'Carry.'

If they could get the marketing department that handled the 6.5 Creedmoor, it would take off for sure...

Rosewood

 

[rosewood]

It's a shame that the discussion on the 30 SC has gone this way!

A very serious question: what happens when an ill-informed politician gets the brilliant (sarcasm) idea to replicate the policies of other high crime countries by banning the ownership of firearms in any military caliber? Where will the owners of arms chambered in: 223, 5.56, 6.8SPC, 30 Carbine, 30M1, 308, 38 S&W, 38 Special, 9x19, and 45 ACP be when their beloved arms and ammunition are banned? We are seeing these attempts with the AR platform.

We actually need to support the development of new arms and ammunition in preparation for the next step our elected non-representatives make!

We may be there now..

 

[wx7b]

I had a hard time spending additional $ on a 10/12 round 9mm to replace my quality Sig 938, but when I saw the Shield+ in 30SC at 13/16 I jumped on it. I think it has a great nitch and will be here to stay, I'm quite happy with it and feel comfortable with 30 rounds on my person vs. 14.

 

[srb10864]

I saw the 30sc Shield plus at the store 1 week ago and bought it. It has a 13rd flush and 16rd extended magazine, which is 3 more than my 9mm Shield plus magazines. The 30sc HST in my Shield plus is 21ft/lbs MORE ENERGY than the 147gr 9mm HST's I've been carrying for years in my 9mm Shield plus, and all my other 9mm concealed carry guns.

HST rounds expand and penetrate, and the 30sc HST's have shown so far to penetrate and expand no differently than the 9mm HST's. All the skeptics please explain to me how I'm less capable with 17rds of 30sc HST in my new Shield plus.

Whenever Glock, SIG, Ruger, Shadow Systems, Taurus, and Springfield release 30sc versions of the 43x, 365, Max9, CR920, GX4, and Hellcat, all of you will eventually buy 1 or 2. As long as bullets from HST, Critical Defense and Gold Dot are made for this round, I'm not worried in the least carrying it for self defense.

 

[sodacan]

IMO this is an answer to a question not asked. I see no real advantage to the 30 Carry over the 9mm. It requires a new handgun to use and who know how available the ammo will be? I think this is one of those cartridges and ammo that will be short lived similar to the 45 GAP round.

Couldn't have said better myself.

 

[BigBelle]

The only thing that would interest me in this caliber is if S&W re-engineered the M&P Bodyguard 380 to chamber the 30 Super Carry. I would retire my 380 Bodyguard and pick up a new one in a heart beat.

S&W hasn't and I don't think they will in the future, so I'm not interested in adding another odd ball pistol caliber to my gun safe. I have enough odd ball pistol calibers: 38/200, 9x20 Browning Longue, 9x18 Mak, 7.62 Tokarev, 32 ACP, 10mm, 32 S&W (short).

 

[srb10864]

If it comes down to just muzzle energy, expansion and penetration, why wouldn't 5.7 be better than either .30sc or 9mm?

The usual answer is that the size of the wound cavity and the total width of the expanded round matters more than anything else. And 9mm makes ridiculously large holes for its energy.

If the 9mm 147gr HST's I've been carrying for years were sufficient self defense rounds, then these new 30sc HST rounds will also be sufficient self defense rounds. They've got more energy and expand and penetrate no differently than a 9mm.

The person getting shot won't know the difference. The medical examiner doing an autopsy, and the doctor doing emergency surgery also won't know the difference between the 9 and 30sc.

Here we are on a S&W forum where we're given a Shield Plus with 17rds of 30sc, and everybody still bitches and moans about it. Tough crowd to please.

 

[Gamecock]

If the 9mm 147gr HST's I've been carrying for years were sufficient self defense rounds

They weren't. You need a rifle or shotgun for that.

We are all responsible for our own salvation. Carry what you want. But never believe a pistol is adequate. We carry pistols because they are convenient.

So the argument is over which is less inadequate.

 

[Dave Lively]

If it comes down to just muzzle energy, expansion and penetration, why wouldn't 5.7 be better than either .30sc or 9mm?

Because the purpose of 30 SC is to increase capacity while still being effective, particularly in small guns.

The 5.7 is much too long to fit guns designed for 45 ACP or 10mm, let along guns designed for 9mm length cartridges. Being a bottleneck cartridge it really needs a long barrel too. There is a reason the pistols chambering it have 5 inch or longer barrels. They are big guns. Too big to be a concealed carry gun.

Even with that 5 inch barrel the 5.7 is less powerful than 30 SC. The test I saw of Speer's 40 grain GoldDot 5.7 ammo generated 275 ft-lbs of power out of Ruger and FN pistols, less than 30 SC generates out of a 3 inch barrel. With a 3 inch barrel a 5.7 pistol would probably be down with the 380 in terms of muzzle energy.

 

[rosewood]

Because the purpose of 30 SC is to increase capacity while still being effective, particularly in small guns.

The 5.7 is much too long to fit guns designed for 45 ACP or 10mm, let along guns designed for 9mm length cartridges. Being a bottleneck cartridge it really needs a long barrel too. There is a reason the pistols chambering it have 5 inch or longer barrels. They are big guns. Too big to be a concealed carry gun.

Even with that 5 inch barrel the 5.7 is less powerful than 30 SC. The test I saw of Speer's 40 grain GoldDot 5.7 ammo generated 275 ft-lbs of power out of Ruger and FN pistols, less than 30 SC generates out of a 3 inch barrel. With a 3 inch barrel a 5.7 pistol would probably be down with the 380 in terms of muzzle energy.

Check out the 22tcm and 22tcm9r, it beats the 5.7 in a pistol. And is in 9mm energy range.

Not saying it is better than 9 or 30sc, just pointing it out.

Rosewood

 

[Dave Lively]

The point I was making is that 5.7 isn't as effective as 9mm JHP out of any barrel length, despite more muzzle energy.

The 5.7 GoldDot generates 275 ft-lbs of energy out of a handgun with a 5 inch barrel.

A 124 grain +P 9mm GoldDot generates around 400 ft-lbs of energy out of a handgun with a 4 inch barrel.

The 9mm has 45% more energy than the 5.7, not less. And that extra energy has a lot to due with why it is more effective.