308w and cast/coated bullets

[Forrest r]

Wanted to do some testing with cast bullets in the 308w this year. Had a little time a month ago so I did a ladder test using 2400 and the lee 312-160tl bullet. 16.0gr of 2400 has always been a good place to start with most cast bullets in the 308w. I did 1/2gr increments up to 19.0gr and the 18.5gr load looked interesting so I wanted to re-test and bump it up a little.

Finely got to the range and re-tested the 16.0gr load. I used the lee 312-160tl bullet that was coated + tumble lubed, a gas check added & sized to .310". I also tested cast bullet design by egan, the eagan 308w that was coated + tumble lubed, a gas check added & sized to .310". 10-shot groups @ 100yds.

Looks like I'm going to have to break out the chronograph and do some playing around with that eagan bullet/alliant 2400 powder combo.

I was more interested in the 18.7gr load of 2400 with the lee 312-160tl bullet. The 10-shot groups was 1 3/8" outside to outside.

More testing with the 18.7gr load and several bullets will probably be the next set of tests. I have no idea how fast those bullets were going. Will be bringing a chronograph the next range session. Right now I'm just guessing 1900fps out of my 30" bbl.

 

[rockquarry]

Forrest r- Which Eagan bullet are you shooting? I've been using the MX3-30 ARD (sort of a semi-spritzer design, app. 200 grs. wheelweight alloy) for at least twenty-five years, mostly in a Remington 700 VS .308.

I've never tried ladder tests, but have had very good results using a variety of powders, but I've never tried #2400. Years ago, well before Internet, it was alleged that #2400 was position sensitive in rifle cartridges. I don't know one way or the other. Have you seen this?

 

[Forrest r]

A link to an egan mold catalog
Castpics and Reloaders Reference Online - Eagan Molds

The eagan bullet was the mx2-308.

I thinned the herd awhile back and I'm down to 5 eagan molds
mx2-30
mx2-308
mx3-30/g
mx3-30/us
mx4-30/a

Actually that cheap lee 312-160 tl 6-cavity mold ($50) rains bullets that can be used in a bunch of different calibers. It's a good bullet design that I've had up to 2700fps in the 308w and it held 2 moa @ 2700fps. That 18.7gr load of 2400 did just over 1 moa with the lee bullet.

2400 can be position sensitive with the small loads in the rifles.

Typically I'll do ladder tests to try to find accuracy nodes. Then I'll refine the ladder test like what I did today tweaking/refining the best results from the initial ladder test. The next step is to re-test/refine more and chronograph. Then re-test again this time using dacron fillers to take away any position sensitivity.

A bigger picture:
Once accuracy is found with a powder/load, several bullets can be tested in that pressure/loads +/- range. This establishes a baseline for what that bullet can do accuracy wise. Then it's time to pump up the volume (speed) and see just how hard the bullets can be driven.

I had a bbl made specifically for cast bullets in the 308w. It's a 30" bbl (higher velocity) with a .340" neck (lc brass + .310 bullet" ='s .339") and a 1 in 14 twist. Cast/lead bullets are easily affected my toque & rotational torque. Most 308w bbl's are 1 in 10 twists anymore. The older remingtons were 1 in 12 twist.

Velocities to get a bullet to do 140,000rpm
1 in 10 twist ='s 1950fps
1 in 12 twist ='s 2350fps
1 in 14 twist ='s 2750fps

That eagan mx2-308 is designed for accuracy. It has a long bore riding nose along with a long tapered unsupported nose (I'll take a picture of it later). Under high rpm's that bullet's nose will actually bend in flight (rotational torque) destroying accuracy. Another eagan bullet (mx3-30/us) that has a long unsupported nose.

The lee 312-160 tl bullet with it's short strong nose.

A cramer #43 bullet. The cramer #43 has a long pointy bore riding nose. The cramer mold I have casts a sp bullet and a hp bullet. The hp bullet has outshot the sp bullet in every hv test I've done. It could be said that a hp is more accurate than sp bullet. If I keep the velocities below 2200fps both bullets have the same accuracy.

By 2400fps+ there's huge differences in accuracy.

Just thought I'd post some cast rifle bullet results. Doesn't seem like a lot of reloaders on this forum do cast bullets in rifles.

 

[rockquarry]

Yes, it seems there is little interest in rifle cast bullet use here.

Regarding powder coating (something else I have not tried) - how does accuracy compare with the conventional sizing / lubing process?

 

[Forrest r]

Ya, it's too bad. Cast bullets in rifles are just too much fun!!!

Both traditional and pc'd bullets do well at high velocity/high pressure.

Both did 2 moa or less but the pc'd bullets had more velocity.

Where the pc'd bullets really shine is with plinking loads. No gas checks needed!!! Nothing more than 8bhn/9bhn range scrap that has been coated along with pistol powders. These were shot from a cheap 1 in 10 twist ebco drop-in 308w bbl for a savage rifle. 10-shot groups @ 50yds.

At the time I think I paid $150 delivered for the bbl, bbl wrench & go/no-go gauges. Free lead, a litttle coating and less powder than a full house 357mag load. The end result is quality range time with cheap plinking, hunting ammo for the high powers. I can't even begin to count the # of cast bullets I put thru the 30a3's and garands. And that was before coated bullets.

 

[Nevada Ed]

With coating available now...........

Shooting lead bullets in rifles might start back up.
I know if I had ever started with lead I would be all over this
but I never did cast lead bullets.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

Very interesting!While I don't even begin to consider pc for my handgun bullets(I shoot over 15K of them/year=too time consuming),I was beginning to consider it for my rifle shooting.
Thanks for posting your results;you just clammed up the guys that keep spraying around that cast bullets are not accurate at rifle velocity.And you've just given me the shove I needed to make the plunge into PCing.

 

[Qc Pistolero]

BTW,do you make your own GCs?If so,from which check maker?Made out of alum or other material?
I am considering making my own but am undecided yet.
Thanks!

 

[Forrest r]

Yes I make my own gas checks out of both aluminum and copper. I make them with gas check makers that I made myself. 44cal gas check maker left & 35cal gas check maker right

I also made gas check makers for the 30cal's and the 22cal's.

 

[reloader7.62]

Forest r,I for one enjoy the back and forth when it come to cast lead rifle bullets as much as I do for pistols.

Most all my rifles have 1:10 twist groove bores so I'm limited in the velocity dept. when it comes to naked or coated bullets, but for the ranges I shoot at 100 yds. or less around here with the accuracy I get none of my targets or game know the difference.

One of the first bullet molds I bough was the Lee .312" 160 gr. TL that I used to cast bullets for my SKS rifles, it also gets used in the Mosins as well. I size it to .311" and shoot in my Sav. 99 in 300 Sav. it's been a tack driver in all those rifles.

 

[rockquarry]

If I'm not mistaken, the Lee 160 grain bullet being discussed here is a close copy of the NEI bullet gunwriter C. E. Harris designed for use in the 7.62x39. I bought such a mould from NEI well before Lee picked it up, but the cartridge was not very popular until about the time Lee marketed their copy. I'll assume it shoots as well, maybe better than the NEI.

I've fiddled with a lot of .30 caliber bullets over the years and one of the very best has been the Lyman #314299 and a hollowpointed version of the same. Surprisingly, this long 200 grain bullet works quite well in the 7.62x39 as well as all the regular .30 caliber cartridges like the .30-40, 308, and .30-06.

 

[Forrest r]

Was told the same thing about that lee mold. It's 1 heck of a bullet!!! It's traditional lubed grooved cousin 312-155 2r is too weak of a design to get any real velocity/high pressure loads out of them.

Lubes have come a long way since the old nra 50/50 lube. Don't get me wrong, I love that old nra lube. Used to order 10 sticks at a time along with 4 qt of hoppe's #9, huge bags of misc patches and piles of brushes.

I kept looking at that lee 312-160tl bullet and couldn't help but wonder if there was enough room in those small rings to hold enough modern lube to shoot hv/high pressure loads. So I bought a 6-cavity mold & cast a pile of test bullets and started lubing/sizing/pc'ing. My 1st attempt with the 312-160tl with traditional lube. Note the 37.0gr load blew out.

The bbl I'm using for these tests is a 30" 1 in 14 shilen varmint contour bbl with a (.340") 308w chamber. The finish on the the inside of that shilen bbl is extremely smooth. Typical bbl's take +/- 1 shot per 1" of bbl to "season" the bbl. This is what that 30" shilen looked like after 15 rounds of traditional lubed bullets (lbt blue/hard). When you see that star pattern on the muzzle of the bbl you know it's seasoned.

When I shot that target above there was no leading in the bbl.But there wasn't a star lube on the muzzle either. This told me that I didn't have enough lube in those small lube rings on that 312-160tl bullet. So I used the traditional lyman 450/lube/sizer bullets from the test above and then put 2 coats of the 45/45/10 tumble lube on them.
45% johnson's paste wax
45% lee tumble lube
10% mineral spirits
Heated/blended, Mines thick enough that I have to heat it in a micro-wave to turn it from a solid to a liquid to use. The end result with the traditional lube + 45/45/10.

Where the 37gr load blew out on the 1st try with the lube only. The 2nd test with the traditional lube + the 45/45/10 held a lot tighter groups. While 1 1/2" to 2" groups @ 100yds are nothing to write home about. And I'm not making any excuses. All testing was done with mixed nato brass. And the bullets were inspected for major visual defects only.

I really like that lee 312-160tl design. It can be used in a bunch of different calibers. Couple the bullet un-sized/as cast with pc and it's nothing to get the bullet diameter up to .314". Or simple size them 1st with a traditional luber/sizer or push thru sizing die.

 

[Forrest r]

Yes that lyman 311299/314299 is 1 heck of a bullet!!! What makes it a good choice:
It doesn't have a wiper groove
It has multiple shallow lube grooves
It has a strong nose design that is not a bore riding design

I've had a lot of 30cal molds over the decades. Kept that cramer #43 (lyman 311334 clone) around for the 30-06/03a3. I do have some heavier molds but I'm really interested in the lighter bullets in the 308w with that slow twist. Some of the bullets I plan on testing this summer.

Top left: A 130gr hp (ness clone) that I put in a nose taper die so that the bullets nose locks into the throat/leade/lands up to the top drive band. It has the same strong 2 lube groove design as the 311299 bullet.

Top center: Lyman's 122gr loverin design, strong nose and strong multiple lube grooves.

Top right: 125gr/sp & 115gr hp (lyman 311359 clone) from a cramer mold. Strong nose, small wiper groove in nose and shallow single lube groove.

Bottom left: Mihec 140gr hp & 150gr fn. It has a deep weak lube groove. Figured I'd test it as is and the ream the mold to make the lube groove shallower if needed. Hoping for 2800fps out of these bullets.

Bottom center: Arsenal 170gr hv bullet. Wanted to compare it to the lee 312-160tl. A 170gr bullet doing 2700fps+ is a pretty good thumper.

Bottom right: cramer 98gr button nosed wc & 98gr mihec hbwc. Been using 4gr/5gr of fast burning pistol powder (bullseye/american select). Looking for a 50yd bughole load/22lr replacement.

Anyway looking at lighter bullets for accuracy and 2900fps+ if possible.

 

[reloader7.62]

Can't touch your velocity but I've had excellent results with the Lee .312" 185 gr. RN bullet in my Mosin rifles. Still working on some loads that will push the envelope in the velocity range the rifles are capable of, just need some range time to test out the load workups.

Here is the bullet I'm using, Lee makes a .309 200 gr. RN same design for the 30 cal. as well. I think it has some nice characteristics for HV loads.

Initial test in the Mosin rifles proved it shoots well at moderate velocity.

 

[Forrest r]

Nice looking bullets!!!

The 2400 is a great all around powder that does well with cast bullets in most rifle calibers. 99%+ of the shooting I do with the 03a3's are nothing more than cast bullets anymore. Free range lead and any of several different fast burning pistol powders make for a fun day at the range. Never added it up but I'm in the +/- $.06 a round for the 30-06 & 308w with the free lead/pc & powders like 2400/unique/am select/bullseye/clays.