32 Bicycle Box With "WE DO NOT GUARANTEE WITH SMOKELESS"

[Boulder350]

Here is an interesting 32 Safety Hammerless bicycle revolver with a box numbered to the frame. Serial number is 86xxx and its an antique first model. Has anyone seen this red stamp before that's on the inside of the lid? Is it a distributor stamp with the initials NB? Could it be stamped by the gun store that sold it?

The stamp reads:
N.B. - WE DO NOT GUARANTEE OUR REVOLVER WHEN USED WITH SMOKELESS OR NITRO POWDERS.

The bottom of the box has a red stamping on it too but I can't make anything out.

This one should probably have a Letter of Authenticity for it to see where it shipped.

 

[H Richard]

Great little bicycle, I have never seen this stamp on any box, but have heard about it in the past. Probably a bean counter CYA requirement.

 

[handejector]

"N. B." = "nota bene" which means "mark well".
There was a time when all educated men knew some Latin.
I don't recall that exact stamp, but I have seen boxes from around the turn of the 19th/20th century with that warning.

 

[mmaher94087]

Yes, I'vs seen this stamp. I have several boxes with this stamp inside the lid. I always assumed this was a disclaimer from the factory. Nice, boxed 2".

 

[BMur]

Source

The Major Distributor was the middleman. Any damaged guns would ultimately end up back at the gun makers place of business. Which I'm absolutely sure got old really quick!

M.Robinson is documented as sending Baby Russians back to Smith and Wesson soon after introduction in 1876 with damaged frames at the latch location from improper hand loading of black powder cartridges.

So the actual source was "The general Public handloading cartridges improperly". Which actually began when reloading tools were for sale commercially.
The truth is Hand loaders have been damaging guns since the beginning of firearm manufacture. That includes Cap & Ball. Even flint lock.

See Photos. Most manufacturers applied a label to the outside of the box. However, it could also have been the Major Distributor who could have applied the label at the request of the gun maker after Smokeless hit the market.

That to me makes more sense since they would have had a surplus of older guns in their store already. So, in my opinion the stamp was applied by the distributor after hand loaders blew up a few thousand guns and at the direction of the manufacturer in an attempt to stop the flooding!

Distributors are also seen stamping their names on boxes and correcting instructions to operate the firearm. So, I'm pointing the finger at the Distributor often at the insistence of the manufacturer to correct problems with the product or avoid returns.

Murph

 

[iby]

"N. B." = "nota bene" which means "mark well".
There was a time when all educated men knew some Latin.
I don't recall that exact stamp, but I have seen boxes from arou

Bene dictum

 

[handejector]

In the early days of smokeless powder, factory ammo was not the problem. The ammo makers were smart enough to keep pressures safe. Reloaders were the problem. Most reloaders of the 1890s did not use scales or even powder measures. They used scoops to measure powder. A scoop was accurate enough for blackpowder charges if one used the right powder- i.e FG, FFG, or FFFG.
Some early reloaders apparently just kept using the same scoops with smokeless powders, and that was a BIG problem. Try to imagine how much of the flat-flaked Bullseye would go into a scoop intended to measure 7 or 8 grains of FFG!
As data and knowledge spread and people became more familiar with smokeless, there were fewer problems. Some attrition of reloaders may have also helped in curing the problem.

Fast forward just a few years, and you see this mark on boxes, like this 38 M&P shipped around 1907-08.
It reads:

THIS ARM IS GUARANTEED
WITH EITHER BLACK
OR SMOKELESS FACTORY
LOADED AMMUNITION

 

[BMur]

Who's fault was it?

I agree that the hand loader was often screwing up during that early smokeless period.

However, the industry had their head in the sand as well. Why did it take 10 years for them to get their act together? I've read and documented powder companies suggesting handloading Shotgun and rifle smokeless powder during the earliest period of smokeless for pistols!

Smokeless reloading tools were not available until the 1920's. Black powder scoops and tools were produced exclusively by several companies up to and including the early 1920's.
Powder scales were first introduced in the early 1920's so how exactly could a hand loader load smokeless safely? Bottom line is they couldn't. Add to that fact the early smokeless reloading manuals were also screwing up. I found early listings suggesting 3.5 grains of bullseye powder for the 38 special with 158 grain round nose bullet. That's way too hot for that heavy of a bullet in 1902 for the early M&P revolver with thin forcing cone. I only use that load in my 357 magnum!!! It's got some snap to it.

So, it was a combination of screw ups in the industry during that early smokeless era that kept the guns bursting for 10+ years! They finally decided to spend the money and make the guns stronger! That's the bottom line.

Murph

 

[opoefc]

I've seen that early red stamp on S&W boxes of the period ( turn of the century+) many times in the past, however Lee's post of his red stamp is a new one to me. Ed

 

[Boulder350]

Thanks guys. I learn something every day here.

Sounds like the stamp is factory applied.

 

[tarro3220]

When was it manufactured or shipped?
UMC was loading smokeless for revolvers as early as 1896. Seems like if it were a problem they would have been sued and shut down (things were even more litigious in the 19th century), but they kept on loading smokeless and black powder side by side without a problem

 

[Boulder350]

The cut off for an antique 32 Safety Hammerless is serial number 91400. I would guess mine was made in 1898. I have the Letter of Authenticity form filled out, ready to mail

 

[DWalt]

The Europeans and British beat the US in the use of smokeless powder. They started manufacturing and using it in the mid-1880s, and the early American smokeless powder loadings used imported propellants. I think the first American smokeless powder plant was built in the early 1890s. Smokeless loadings dominated the US ammunition market by the early 1900s, but some American black powder loadings survived into the 1930s.

 

[Club Gun Fan]

This is from the list of my catalogs
TITLE: Smith & Wesson Springfield, Mass. U.S.A.

DATE PUBLISHED: 1898

PUBLISHER: unknown

COVER: The cover layout is the same as the 1892 catalog.
"We do not guarantee our Revolvers when used with Smokeless or Nitro Powders" is printed in red on the bottom of the front cover.

 

[Boulder350]

Thanks Don, its a factory stamp

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Thanks Don, its a factory stamp

Mark
Yes. I'll take a picture of it later.
Don

 

[Club Gun Fan]

Here's a picture of the 1898 catalog

 

[BMur]

Industry Problem

Seems like all of the major gun manufacturers were basically on the same page at that time.

Harrington & Richardson
Iver Johnson
Colt Firearms
Smith & Wesson Firearms

All of them carried the same smokeless warning label on boxes.

The subject is not a simple one to iron out. It's fascinating to me.

If it was a simple transition, why didn't the industry come out with very basic reloading tools and kits for smokeless powder in say 1900? I mean it's really simple;

This kit of powder scoops to be used with Bullseye smokeless powder only. Read and follow loading data carefully.
Simply mark all the scoops with example:

2 Grains Bullseye only

2.5 Grains Bullseye only

3 Grains Bullseye only

4 Grains Bullseye only

5 Grains Bullseye only

That basic kit would cover the majority of the pistol/revolver calibers of that era.

It never happened!!! Not til the 1920's right about the time Saami standards were established. That tells me there were a lot of problems with early smokeless loads/powders when used in earlier guns. The black powder ERA followed no standards. That from my research was the root of the problem.

Murph

 

[BMur]

Don't believe me!

If you perform just a little research? (See photo)

This is what you will find from modern black powder cartridge manufacturers that actually sell ammunition to the general public. Both smokeless and Black powder cartridge.

It's not an 1896 UMC listing during the height of the industry smokeless problem. It's not an opinion from a smokeless hand loader. This is a real time statement 2022 from a major cartridge manufacturer today.

Murph

 

[tarro3220]

Here's a picture of the 1898 catalog

The 1896 hand ejector in 32 SW long came out 2 years before that. And the 38 special 1899 hand ejector came out 1 year after that.

But does that mean those guns are restricted to black powder only? Especially because 32 SW long and 38 special were designed for black powder in the first place (which is why 38 special is such a huge case compared to 9mm luger).

But at the same time I think you'd be hard pressed to find an 1899 Hand Ejector that has NEVER seen smokeless powder.