32 cal. hand ejector

[walter o]

When did or did S&W start the Hard Rubber (plastic ) target 2 screw grips that are on this gun.Or are they after market?S/N 67362

 

[murphydog]

They were first used on the model 1891 Single Shot target guns. No fair guessing what year...

 

[walter o]

I had always thought they were wood.

 

[Old 44 Guy]

My wife's 1891 S. S. had hard rubber stocks. All of my 22-32 targets had Walnuts.

 

[Göring's S&W]

They first appeared, TMK, on the 1891 single shot / revolvers. IIRC they were phased out in the 1910ish time frame. Early bekearts have the gold deep dish medallion grips, and I don't believe there are any "concave" I frame extension (target) stocks. They may have been offered concurrently for a time, the hard hard rubber (OP grips) and the deep dish walnut I frame extension grips.

 

[Hondo44]

When did or did S&W start the Hard Rubber (plastic ) target 2 screw grips that are on this gun.Or are they after market? S/N 67362

I agree with others; those are a factory design actually made out of rubber from the Gutta Percha tree from south America. Although plastic reproductions are being made. Check the back of the right grip for the gun's serial # to verify originality.

 

[Hondo44]

They first appeared, TMK, on the 1891 single shot / revolvers. IIRC they were phased out in the 1910ish time frame. Early bekearts have the gold deep dish medallion grips, and I don't believe there are any "concave" I frame extension (target) stocks. They may have been offered concurrently for a time, the hard hard rubber (OP grips) and the deep dish walnut I frame extension grips.

Jim,
I'm not an expert on this time frame but I'll back you on your statements. The deep dish gold medallion walnut Bekeart style target stocks were probably available on other target models from 1910 forward, pre 1911 Bekearts.

 

[glowe]

. . . I don't believe there are any "concave" I frame extension (target) stocks.

Jim - are you saying there were no concave targets on SS pistols?? The reason I ask is that I have a couple sets of those style stocks and always assumed they were made for target applications starting around 1900 to 1910, while gold medallion target stocks were used during the teens. Unfortunately, none of my concave targets have serial numbers.

 

[walter o]

The grips are penciled on the back with the matching serial number

 

[Hondo44]

The grips are penciled on the back with the matching serial number

Bravo, that would make them original. Is the frame serial # on the forestrap behind the trigger guard instead of the butt?

 

[walter o]

No the s/n is on the butt

 

[Göring's S&W]

Jim - are you saying there were no concave targets on SS pistols?? The reason I ask is that I have a couple sets of those style stocks and always assumed they were made for target applications starting around 1900 to 1910, while gold medallion target stocks were used during the teens. Unfortunately, none of my concave targets have serial numbers.

Gary - can you post a pic of a set? I can't say I remember seeing concave wood I frame extension grips before. Certainly it would make sense they came on one of the SS target pistols.

 

[Hondo44]

No the s/n is on the butt

Well I would say that's as it should be based on the following:

The SCSW 3rd indicates under the Model of 1903 - 1st & 2nd Changes, 1904 -1906 & 1906 - 1909, that walnut extension stocks (likely optional) were introduced in this period and the serial # was on the 'butt'. This may indicate that there were concave tops on walnut stocks w/o medallions, prior to recessed gold medallions which weren't introduced on wood stocks until ~ 1910.

Under Mod of 1903 - 3rd Change, 1909-1910, it's indicated that the serial # is on the 'frame'. This may be the period when the forestrap serial # location began on models with sq butt ext stocks.

 

[stu1ritter]

Has anyone lettered a 1903 that stated they came with the extended black hard rubber grips? My 1903 5th change has the extended grips and letters as coming with checkered black hard rubber grips? My serial number is on the butt.
thanks,

 

[glowe]

Gary - can you post a pic of a set? I can't say I remember seeing concave wood I frame extension grips before. Certainly it would make sense they came on one of the SS target pistols.

I just snapped a quick picture of what I think can be found on a 32 HE/22/32 HFT. The top 3 stocks are what I am now calling convex, as pointed out to me by H Richard, targets from the pre 1910s. The one on the left is a RP stock on a 22/32 HFT from the 1920s. The one on the bottom with the medallion is what I think is a 1910s era target, and the black hard rubber target on bottom right. One interesting point is that these stocks are of varying lengths, with some projecting far below the checkering, while others seem quite a bit shorter. Don't know what to think about that fact, but they do not appear to have been sanded shorter anytime recently.

There is a lot of information and knowledge about K frame stocks and the eras when each type was manufactured, but these I frame stocks are a little more obscure. Anyone with added information, please share to help us understand the evolution of these I frame target stocks.

 

[H Richard]

I have not seen any wood concave target grips but I have seen the wood rounded top grips, or maybe called convex top. As shown on this 22/32 HFT


The large gold medallion's are shown on this Single Shot (3rd model)

 

[Hondo44]

Stu,

I just haven't seen many lettered models with rubber grips, maybe others have. But in the case of walnut grips,
the sq. butt stocks usually letter as 'extended stocks' and the 2 screw target stocks usually letter as 'extended target stocks if I recall correctly.

It depends on the clerk's entry in the shipping records. Roy records in the letter, the actual clerk's entry.

 

[glowe]

I have not seen any wood concave target grips but I have seen the wood rounded top grips, or maybe called convex top. As shown on this 22/32 HFT

This is something I always get confused on when describing concave/convex! You are right, the target stocks I am referring to are convex, meaning round top curved out and not in! Thanks for the comment. I think that by the late teens and twenties, the correct stocks for a 22/32 HFT were RP extended.

Where is Lee when I need him to correct my errors?

 

[Hondo44]

Concave walnut stocks on pre 1910 models and pre ~ #15OOO 1917, Truerriver's photo:

~1910 to 1920 concave with recessed Gold medallion 44 TL Target and Ladysmith .22:

Convex style grips w/o medallions 1st used on 1917 Military Models after about 15,000 to 20000 serial range and on all other models from ~ 1920 until order for recessed Gold plate over brass reinstated BUT in 'convex' wood stocks 2/11/1929, changed 3/18/29 to flush mounted, flat gold plated, April 1929 changed to flush mounted, flat chrome plated over brass. All stocks convex from the on.

 

[glowe]

Jim - sorry but I am still confused? Are all your dates referring to I frame target stocks or standard walnuts?

Here is what I gleaned from your post:

No concave stocks w/o medallions
1910 to 1920 Concave stocks with medallions
1917 to ?? convex Regulation Police stocks
1929 medallion stocks reinstated

What I am trying to establish is when the 2 types of I frame target stocks were used and did they overlap with the RP extended stocks? I had always assumed that the gold medallios targets were used in the teens, the RP stocks were introduced in 1917, but that leaves the convex targets and the 1903 to 1910 era in question??

 

[murphydog]

This is something I always get confused on when describing concave/convex!

Caves go deeper than their outsides - so "con"cave is lower than the surrounding area .

 

[Hondo44]

Jim - sorry but I am still confused? Are all your dates referring to I frame target stocks or standard walnuts?

Here is what I gleaned from your post:

No concave stocks w/o medallions
1910 to 1920 Concave stocks with medallions
1917 to ?? convex Regulation Police stocks
1929 medallion stocks reinstated

What I am trying to establish is when the 2 types of I frame target stocks were used and did they overlap with the RP extended stocks? I had always assumed that the gold medallions targets were used in the teens, the RP stocks were introduced in 1917, but that leaves the convex targets and the 1903 to 1910 era in question??

Hi Gary,

Both. All frame size stock changes were basically the same. The 1917 military stocks were the exception as noted in my above post.

But there are exceptions for the I frames which were the only revolver models to have target stocks and extended sq butt stocks.

"Here is what I gleaned from your post:

No concave stocks w/o medallions - INCORRECT, early 1917 military & all frames 1904 TO 1909 , SEE ABOVE AND BELOW
1910 to 1920 Concave stocks with medallions - CORRECT EXCEPT EARLY 1917 MILITARY
1917 to ?? convex Regulation Police stocks - INCORRECT, 1920 TO 1923, SEE BELOW
1929 medallion stocks reinstated" - CORRECT

The 2 screw target stocks in black rubber and wood with concave tops and w/o medallions (except premium stocks like pearl and ivory) overlapped from ~1904 thru 1909.

The RP concave extended stocks with medallions were introduced in 1917 as you noted. So they overlapped with concave target stocks w/medallions from 1917 until ~1920.

About 1920 medallions were eliminated on all wood stocks, and followed the convex style of the post ~#15000 1917 military stocks, with convex tops and w/o medallions.

.22/32 HFTs with a serial number below ~#258000 (right after WW I), would have come with concave checkered two-screw extension target stocks with gold plated brass medallions. If above that number they had the new standard stocks, concave Regulation Police stocks and deep dish gold plated brass medallions on rebated grip frame in the late 'teens. The concave target stocks w/medallions were optional. By the early '20s the standard was convex RP stocks w/o medallions and convex target stocks w/o medallions as optional.

.22/32 HFT's changed from RP convex stocks to convex target stocks w/o medallions, by order Aug.29, 1923.

Hope that helps,

 

[glowe]

Jim - thanks for the comments, but my questions on stocks were referring to pre-war I frames only as that was the discussion on this thread. I have gleaned substantial information about K & N frames and am confident on the era of manufacture for each type of stocks used on those frames, but having started a new collection of I frames, the questions are not so readily answered. Here is what I have located to date.

The I frame target stocks actually got their start on the Model 1891 Single Shot pistol. By 1900, all 1st & 2nd Model Single Shot Target Pistols had black hard rubber target stocks and Roy has stated in the past that both the Perfected and Model 1903 revolvers could have been ordered with target stocks. It is stated in Jink's S&W book the Third Model SS pistol used Walnut stocks. That would put the walnut target stocks from 1909 to 1923. A late example of a 3rd Model SS in Jink's book shows a convex target without medallion. Early I frames would have only had the standard black HR diamond round butt service stocks, but by 1910 it seems that medallion walnut target stocks were available and may have been ordered with the standard Model 1903, as well as being standard on the 3rd Model SS pistols.

The next I frame example was the 22/32 HFT, which started production in 1911 and early examples have been seen with the Medallion Targets. By 1917, extended RP stocks were available, so may have been used on the HFT??? Last design is the Regulation Police I frames that originally had extended stocks with medallions. Those stocks started in 1917.

So with that information found to date, here is my stab at stock chronology:

1900 to 1910 - Black hard rubber target stocks on SS pistols and available order for Model 1903 & Perfected DA. Model 1903 standard stocks were only black HR round butt.

1910 to 1920 - Medallion walnut target stocks available on Third Model SS pistol starting in 1909, so would have been available for purchase on the Model 1903. Early 22/32 HFTs would have had the same medallion walnut target stocks used on the 3rd Model SS pistols. By 1917, 22/32 HFT started using extended RP stocks???

1920 to 1930 – This is where it gets a little confusing. I find convex walnut target stocks w/o medallions on 3rd Model SS, but do not know if they were standard on 22/32 HFTs in the 1920s. I assume that they could be ordered on any I frame, but maybe all 22/32 HFTs used RP extended stocks exclusively???

1930 to 1940 – More confusion. Kit Guns had both round butt and square butt walnut stocks with medallions?? 22/32 HFT had extended RP walnut stocks with medallions?? Standard 32 HE had round butt black hard rubber stocks only??

Any comments would be welcome.

 

[Hondo44]

I too was only referring to pre WW II I frames. My comments in caps below:

Jim - thanks for the comments, but my questions on stocks were referring to pre-war I frames only as that was the discussion on this thread. I have gleaned substantial information about K & N frames and am confident on the era of manufacture for each type of stocks used on those frames, but having started a new collection of I frames, the questions are not so readily answered. Here is what I have located to date.

The I frame target stocks actually got their start on the Model 1891 Single Shot pistol. By 1900, all 1st & 2nd Model Single Shot Target Pistols had black hard rubber target stocks WOOD TARGETS ON 2ND MODELS ALSO, PG. 111 SCSW, 3RD. and Roy has stated in the past that both the Perfected and Model 1903 revolvers could have been ordered with target stocks. It is stated in Jink's S&W book the Third Model SS pistol used Walnut stocks. That would put the walnut target stocks from 1909 to 1923. YES, HAD CONCAVE W/MEDS., UP TO 1920; THEN CONVEX W/O MEDS., THRU 1923, . A late example of a 3rd Model SS in Jink's book shows a convex target without medallion. ALSO ON PG.111.

Early I frames would have only had the standard black HR diamond round butt service stocks, AND WALNUT CONCAVE STOCKS ALSO AVAILABLE FROM 1904. SEE .32 2ND MODEL TARGET PG. 125. but by 1910 it seems that medallion walnut target stocks were available and may have been ordered with the standard Model 1903, as well as being standard on the 3rd Model SS pistols. CORRECT.

The next I frame example was the 22/32 HFT, which started production in 1911 and early examples have been seen with the Medallion Targets.THEY WERE INTRODUCED WITH WOOD CONCAVE MED. TARGETS. By 1917, extended RP stocks were available, so may have been used on the HFT??? CORRECT, THEY BECAME STANDARD ON HFTS AS I INDICATED IN MY ABOVE POST ~1918 WITH MEDS AND CONCAVE. Last design is the Regulation Police I frames that originally had extended stocks with medallions. Those stocks started in 1917. CORRECT AND ARE CONCAVE. BOTH THE RPs AND HFTs
SWITCHED IN 1920 TO CONVEX RP SQ EXTENDED STOCKS W/O MEDS.
So with that information found to date, here is my stab at stock chronology:

1900 to 1910 - Black hard rubber target stocks on SS pistols and available order for Model 1903 & Perfected DA. Model 1903 standard stocks were only black HR round butt. M1903 ALSO AVAILABLE WITH OPTIONAL RUBBER EXTENDED TARGETS AND WITH WOOD STOCKS.

1910 to 1920 - Medallion walnut target stocks available on Third Model SS pistol starting in 1909, so would have been available for purchase on the Model 1903. CORRECT. Early 22/32 HFTs would have had the same medallion walnut target stocks used on the 3rd Model SS pistols. CORRECT. By 1917, 22/32 HFT started using extended RP stocks??? CORRECT, RP STOCKS AS STANDARD, WITH MED. TARGETS OPTIONAL.

1920 to 1930 – This is where it gets a little confusing. I find convex walnut target stocks w/o medallions on 3rd Model SS, but do not know if they were standard on 22/32 HFTs in the 1920s. YES, BECAME STANDARD ON 22/32 HFTs AS OF CHANGE ORDER IN 1923, SEE POST #22 ABOVE, CONVEX TARGET STOCKS W/O MEDS. I assume that they could be ordered on any I frame, but maybe all 22/32 HFTs used RP extended stocks exclusively??? COULD BE ORDERED ON ANY I FRAME AND HAVE BEEN OBSERVED ON OTHER MODELS ORIGINALLY FROM THE FACTORY, ESPECIALLY 32 TARGETS. ON HFTs RP STOCKS WERE STANDARD ~1918 TO 1923, BUT NOT EXCLUSIVELY. S&W WOULD SHIP WITH ANY STOCKS AVAILABLE INCLUDING TARGETS IF ORDERED.

1930 to 1940 – More confusion. Kit Guns had both round butt and square butt walnut stocks with medallions?? AND ALSO TARGET STOCKS WITH MEDS. (SEE MINE BELOW). 22/32 HFT had extended RP walnut stocks with medallions?? NO, ONLY THE KIT GUNS. HFTs WERE STANDARD AGAIN WITH TARGET STOCKS AFTER 1923 AND STANDARD W/MED TARGETS AFTER 1929. Standard 32 HE had round butt black hard rubber stocks only?? NO, ALSO AND MORE COMMON, ARE CONVEX WALNUT SERVICE STOCKS WITH MEDS., (SEE BELOW).

Any comments would be welcome.

Pre war 22/32 Kit Gun with factory original numbers matching convex target stocks, with flat chrome meds:

Pre war 32 HE with walnut Svc stocks and flat chrome medallions:

 

[glowe]

OK - thanks for the added information Jim. The references to 1917 Military threw me off. I think the confusion here lies in the fact that there were some very different classes of I frames out there as compared to the pre-war K fames.

Let's see, next to tackle might be J frame stocks . . .

 

[Hondo44]

You're very welcome Gary,



Sorry for the confusion. The I frames are convoluted and it even gets worse after WW II.

But J frame stocks are not so bad; before the Models of 1953, I and J frames both had pre war I frame length stocks. The Models of 1953 I and J frames both had new J frame length stocks.

Round butts were 1/8" longer than the old I frame stocks, and the new sq butts were an additional 5/32" longer than the new rd butts (9/32" longer than the old I frame rd butt.) But the locating pin position in the grip frame did not change.