.32 CF SA "V" Patent Dates On Top Strap

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


This is somewhat of a continuation of my earlier thread but it
encompasses a range of serial numbers and I thought it should
have a separate thread.

In particular, my recent purchase of serial number 1102 has me
in a quandary about the "V" patent dates that are on top of the
strap over the cylinder.

Depending on the source, the serial number range that these
patent dates were added to the top strap isn't clear. For example,
the Neil and Jinks Smith and Wesson 1857 - 1945, pg. 62 says:

"The patent dates found on the top strap of later models were
added between serial numbers 1216 and 1405."

Supica and Nahas Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson,
4th ed. pg. 87 says:

"Early models: More than 1000 of the first guns did not have
the the patent markings (which are found on the rear of the
top strap above the cylinder in the majority of production)."

My 1102 does have those patent dates on the top strap (although
they are weakly struck). I would like to know if there are any
other sources that reference this that may have more current
data.

I currently have three .32 cf SA's in my collection and reviewing
the stampings on them, I noticed there was a change in the die
used to make this stamping. I present below the "V" stampings
of my three (1102, 32072 and 54339). For those that have one
of these (or more), I would be interested in seeing which type
your stampings match.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[dltvette]

Webb,
Serial No. 7692 with internal eccentric strain screw. V-stamp is strong.
Dave

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

An interesting example! This model wasn't popular in blue. Over
90% were in nickel. The eccentric strain screw is unusual for this
serial number. Referring back to the Neil and Jinks Smith and
Wesson 1857 - 1945, pg. 62 it states:

Revolvers before about 6580 were equipped with an eccentric
mainspring strain screw mounted under the grips. Somewhere
between serial numbers 6559 and 6603 the company returned
to the more standard strain screw mounted in the front strap.
This change was made in May of 1878."

Then in Jinks' History of Smith and Wesson (revised edition)
pg. 114 it says:

"The tension device did not prove successful and was eliminated
by June 1878, six months after the model had been introduced.
A total of 6500 revolvers were manufactured with this unusual
mainspring tension device."

Yours is considerably outside this serial number range and that
is unusual in itself and deserves more research. The grips look
to be from an earlier gun. Thanks for sharing!


Cheers!
Webb

 

[dltvette]

Hi There,

An interesting example! This model wasn't popular in blue. Over
90% were in nickel. The eccentric strain screw is unusual for this
serial number. Referring back to the Neil and Jinks Smith and
Wesson 1857 - 1945, pg. 62 it states:

Revolvers before about 6580 were equipped with an eccentric
mainspring strain screw mounted under the grips. Somewhere
between serial numbers 6559 and 6603 the company returned
to the more standard strain screw mounted in the front strap.
This change was made in May of 1878."

Then in Jinks' History of Smith and Wesson (revised edition)
pg. 114 it says:

"The tension device did not prove successful and was eliminated
by June 1878, six months after the model had been introduced.
A total of 6500 revolvers were manufactured with this unusual
mainspring tension device."

Yours is considerably outside this serial number range and that
is unusual in itself and deserves more research. The grips look
to be from an earlier gun. Thanks for sharing!


Cheers!
Webb

Webb,
This was my grandfathers gun. If you enlarge the photo with the grips you will see they are numbered to the gun. Attached is the factory letter I received referencing the eccentric internal strain screw.
Dave

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


"If you enlarge the photo with the grips you will see they are numbered to the gun."


Ah yes. These photos are a lot more clear. The earlier pic made
it difficult to see the stamped number. It looked like it was only
three digits instead of four. My Mistake. Thanks for posting those
clearer pics.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[mmaher94087]

Webb, your 1st photo I will call the dingbat to the left of the 'Y' a Maltese Cross. I'm at a loss as to what to call the one in the 3rd photo but it reminds me of the points on a compass. If I may, I'd like to address them as "M" - Maltese Cross and "C" - Compass in my contribution.

Serial Number

2383 M
4060 M
5931 M
20015 M
30977 M
40571 M
43055 M
49686 M
80075 C
86621 C
95536 C

The dingbat stampings on the 40, xxx range appear plugged. I will assume that S&W saw the same and ordered new dies. I also noted that the 'Y' strike was light on the four-digit serial numbers and heavier on the 20K+ numbers.

I hope I've been helpful to enabling your addiction and mine too.

 

[Boulder350]

Webb,

There appears to be a transition of the "V" patent markings. Its hard to track this feature since many online pictures don't show the top strap markings. My research records show:

144 No V
667 No V
1102 Has V
1411 Has V
1742 Has V
1804 No V This revolver is engraved
2098 Has V
All others Have V

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Very interesting information! I'll go out on a limb and say that
SN 1804 may be considered a special case. The "V" patent dates
may have been left off to allow for more freedom for the engraver
to exercise his art. A Factory letter might clear that up (if it was
sent out for engraving by them).

It seems to me that S&W's system of making up revolvers has
contributed to the confusion. I mean that frames were finished
and grips (stocks) were fitted and then placed in inventory. At
some later point, the frames were taken from inventory and
given to a "fitter" to add the rest of the parts (based on the
work order) and stamped with the serial number of the frame.
Then the frame and associated parts were sent to the polishing
department and then the finish was applied (nickel, blue, etc.).

This meant that frames retrieved from inventory were not doled
out in a sequential order and probably is responsible for the
non linear sequence of changes that occur in production.

Does that make sense?


Cheers!
Webb

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Oooops! I forgot to answer Mike's last post.

I also call the early cross stamped at the apex of the "V" a Maltese
Cross and the later style could be called a "Compass" Cross (I
was thinking of calling a "Pointed Cross" but either will work).
Both are descriptive of its basic shape. I'll let the Group decide.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Patbar]

Here is the stamping on mine, serial 47810 :

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Here is the stamping on mine, serial 47810 :

Okay. Thanks for posting that pic. I can see that the die was starting
to deteriorate (look at the upper patent date and see the broken
"5" at the end of "PAT'D APR. 20. 75").

There seems (to me) a pattern developing. .32 cf SA's below serial
number 50000 appear to have the older Maltese cross and those
above 50000 have the later Pointed (Compass) cross. Unfortu-
nately, there hasn't been enough data to be conclusive of the
point of change.

Plus we know that changes in S&W firearms don't occur at a
specific serial number and there can be a considerable amount
of overlap of serial numbers between changes. So more data
is required to firm-up the perceived change over point.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[dltvette]

Here is a 6” barrel in the 96xxx range that has a “compass cross”.
Dave

 

[Boulder350]

Serial number 50495

 

[dltvette]

.32 Double Action Second Model with .32 SA patent barrel & top strap markings.
I don’t own this revolver any longer, but my records show it was in the 12xxx serial range, butt, cylinder, latch, barrel & right grip all match. Nickel, 3” barrel, black checkered rubber grips. I also found some saved photos.
Mike, mmaher94087, directed me to Smith & Wesson 1857-1945 Revised Edition Neal & Jinks, page 321, Appendix IV Patent Date Markings, that states:
The company would sometimes fit a double action barrel to a single action gun or a single action barrel to a double action gun, usually in order to be able to furnish a length of barrel they were out of for one type but had in stock for the other. This occurred only rarely, and primarily during the 1880’s and 1890’s, as during those years the barrels of many of the double and single actions were interchangeable. For this reason you may find a gun with all serials matching but with double action markings on single action or single action markings on a double action. Note, however, that if the serial on the barrel does not match the rest of the gun it was not done at the factory.
Dave

 

[Boulder350]

Smith & Wesson used up some of the old barrels from the 32 Single Action (SA) on the 32 DA. I have a DA 32 that has 2 serial numbers on the barrel. One in the 48xxx range and the other in the 2xxx range. The rest of the gun has the same 2xxx serial number. Have seen a number of them and heard of other members here who have double serial numbers on the barrels. My 3 DA's have the "V" patents on them and they are all under the 134xx and below.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Well, I am learning new things. I didn't know that the .32 SA barrel
would fit the .32 DA (and vice versa). I don't have a .32 DA and
thus never studied that model. But one thing perplexes me.

If there were left over .32 SA barrels that were fitted to .32 DA
frames, why would there be two sets of serial numbers? It is my
understanding that barrels are numbered to the frame when they
are fitted to that fame. So, that would mean the barrel was first
on another frame. I suppose if S&W were filling an order for a
non standard barrel length and the only frames were already
fitted with a barrel (with a different length or something), they
would remove that barrel and then fit a different barrel to com-
plete the order. The take off barrel would have a number and if
used on another gun, the new serial number would have to be
placed on that barrel; leading to having 2 serial numbers on a
barrel.

But that is just my supposition.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[Boulder350]

Here is a picture of the second model 32 DA barrel with the 2 serial numbers. The top serial number does not match the frame but the lower one does.

 

[mmaher94087]

wlw-19958, your post is spot on. The takeoff barrel was reused on another frame. Smith & Wesson did not waste a part, unless defective, as they had time and materials (money, money, money) invested in useable inventory.

 

[mmaher94087]

Webb, I ran across this one in a closed auction (June 7). I found this after the auction closed so, unfortunately, it isn't mine but here's the scoop:

.32 Single Action, SN 17149, blue, 3" barrel with mottled red/black stocks.
"V" with Maltese cross.