351 WSL load data?

C17

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Ok everybody. Here is the deal. My dad inherited a 1907 Winchester Self Loading Rifle in 351 Winchester from my grandfather who passed away.

The 351 WSL was a gun used mostly by prison guards back in the day. The round lost popularity and it was discontinued in the 1980's. Now the only people I see offering it is Buffalo Bore, and Graf and Sons.

I would like to load some for my dad, but can't even find a 180 grain .352 bullet mould anywhere.

Chuck Hawks lists this...

"The .351 WSL is based on a semi-rimmed, straight-sided case 1.380" long that uses small rifle primers. The rim diameter is .407" and the head diameter is .380". Cartridge overall length is 1.90". Jacketed bullet diameter is .351", not the standard .357"-.358" used by modern .35 caliber cartridges. Size cast bullets to .352". The maximum average pressure should not exceed 39,000 psi."


Is it worth the endeavor or should I just buy my dad 100 round packs for 50 bucks each and call it a day. I wouldnt even know where to start for die sets for the dillon.
 
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C17,
When I go home tonight I will find my Cartridges Of The World, there is some load data and maybe some info on making cases. There might be info on how to size the cases..." where there's a will, there's a way "....Gary
 
C17,
When I go home tonight I will find my Cartridges Of The World, there is some load data and maybe some info on making cases. There might be info on how to size the cases..." where there's a will, there's a way "....Gary

Thanks Gary! Any info would be appreciated.
 
COW #12 says the Lyman 351319 is correct, making a 177 gr bullet
Using a jacketed 180 grain bullet, the book likes 19 grains of 2400 or
19.5 grains of IMR 4227 to give a little over 1750fps.
I wouldn't count on finding 100 rds at $50, BA is $33 for 20 and back ordered.
 
C17, just checked Cartridges of the World. They're showing a Lyman mold # 351319 with a cast of 177. They also show 19 grs. of 2400 or 19.5 with a 180 gr. bullet I guess jacket. The load for the Lyman 351319 they show as 16 grs. IMR 4227. That's on pg 112 of the 12th edition.

Good luck
 
That cartridge is a dead duck obsolete but easy to make the cases from regular old 357 Max brass. I don't recall the dimensions but the rim is turned down a bit and the case trimmed and you got it. I recall an old vet I knew who still hunted with his self loading Winchester model 1907. As best as I recall loading is similar to a large magnum handgun cartridge with powders like 2400, 4227 or H-110. The Bahamian Navy actually issued these old rifles on their patrol boats back in the 70's.

If you really need this dimensions I can dig them up in some old books but right now I can't get my hands on them.

Corrected my first sentence forgot to say 357 Max but not hard to find.
 
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I found an article...Fabricating Brass For Obsolete Cartridges by Bob Shell at Real Guns - Fabricating Brass for Obsolete Cartridges, that gives exact instructions and dimensions to make 351 WSL from 357 Maxi. If you like turning cases on a lath you can make them, but buying empty brass might be easier. Bob solves the bullet problem by swaging 38/357 jacketed bullets down to .351 and states they work fine. Swaging a cast bullet down might work also. A Lee bullet sizing tool that pushes them thru nose first should work fine. I don't know if that dia. is a stock size but can be special ordered. I have the same load data as garbler, bill and wiley.
Gary
 
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The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook 3 rd Edition has a good detailed drawing with dimensions if you want to make cases.
I have had no luck finding a set of proper 351 WSL dies.
I would try loading a few with 357 magnum dies, who knows it just might work...and if you allready have these dies on hand, nothing to loose. The swaging of bullets down to .351 for jacketed or .352 for cast will solve the bullet problem. In Bob Shell's photo's of the swaged bullets they looked good with out any distortion. Let us know if this works out.
Gary
 
I got some blemished .338 bullets from Midway some years back (I can't tell what is "blemished" about them). I wished to have some jacketed bullets to use in 8x56Rmm (.329).

I swage these down to the desired diameter with a Lee die and it works perfectly. I apply a very thin layer of Imperial Sizing Wax and they go on through with a little effort. If I can get these thick jacket/long bearing surface rifle bullets down .009 you should be able to easily do jacketed .357 handgun bullets.

I like hearing about these off-beat projects......my venture into the world of reloading for a fat-chambered/tight groove M95 Steyr straight pull rifle has certainly been one.:D
 
Maybe this will help if mold is still available. .351 SL was a good round that just did not catch on in post WWI America. I suppose the availability of surplus '03's and 1917 Enfields along with cheap ammo didn't help.
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wow, thanks everyone for the input. I am going to let my brain cool down a bit while I process this. I do not have a lathe to cut a new extractor groove out of 357 MAX brass. I can trim ctg's though. I am not sure how to swage a bullet down. I never ventured into that. Seems reasonable. If I can do that with 357 cast, I can but a boatload from midatlantic for cheap and size em all. Hardest part is the brass. Buffalo Arms (not Buffalo Bore) manufactures this ammo, but at 33 bucks for 20. I emailed them about brass...lets see what happens. I can get powder and primers anywhere, and if I can figure out how to resize 357 bullets, I think I may be onto something. Even if the bulk of investment is in brass, I have a dillion set up for 357. Sure, I may ruin a few adjusting it right, but that is half the fun. The biggest reason I am doing this is because it would mean a lot to my dad for me to make them for him. I just dont want to go out and buy it.
 
C-17; Aumillers Gunshop in Westerville, Ohio had a number of these guns and ammo years ago. He's getting out of reloading and may (repeat may) have used dies or brass left. Phone # (614) 891-06566, ask for Dan Aumiller, be contrite or he can get cranky! Ivan
 
The LEE resizing die would be easy to use to swage 357 bullets down.

Lube and Sizing Kit - Lee Precision

They don't list .352 as a standard available size (of course).

Up until recently with all the frantic buying,,LEE would make any diameter you needed for $25 or $30 and about a 2 week wait.
I see they've suspended all custom work till later this spring,,but an email or call might get you a response.

Getting some reloadable empty brass will be your biggest chore. But with some hunting you should be able to find some that's been converted or maybe even some once fired that got saved just because.



I'm loading 401 WSL and going thru the same trials as you with the 351.
I'm using 35Remington brass which requirers base turning, extractor groove turning and OAL trimming.
41Mag pistol bullets are bit over size for the .407 bore,,so a LEE die will do that job,,but so far plain lead at .410 has proved no problem.
4227 powder works great in this caliber as well as the 351WSL.
A set of .41Magnum reloading dies does all the reloading along w/a 35 Remington shell holder for the 401.
I'm almost sure I've read that you can use 357 dies to load the 351,,but maybe that's just armchair experts talkin'. I can't say for sure myself because I've never loaded that number.


It can all be done,,it just takes some figurin' and time. But it's not like you need to turn out 400 rounds of the stuff,,at least I don't.

A box or two is fine just to shoot the rifle once in a while.
 
351 Win

I have several pieces of 351 once fired brass and I know someone that has 2 or 3 boxes of factory loaded 351 win ammo available. The 351 win rifle was sold. If you have an interest I can check what he would want for the ammo.
 
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I put this together a few years back. It's more stuff about the .351 Winchester and the Self-Loading line of rifles than most folks care about.

__________________________

The .351 Winchester Self Loading cartridge was the most popular of several similar cartridges introduced by that firm during the first decade of the 20th century. First marketed in 1907, it and the Model 1907 rifle were modestly successful for the next fifty years.

Soon after the turn of the 20th century Winchester began development of a line of semi-automatic rifles. Primary design work was done by T.C. Johnson, an in-house Winchester employee who also was responsible for the famous Model 12 repeating shotgun among many other designs. The design featured a "hesitation blow-back" system of operation. The Self-Loading rifles as they were called, have no locking lugs, instead utilizing a heavy one-piece bolt and counter weight acting in concert with a heavy spring. The counter weight portion of the bolt and its spring are housed within the fore end of the rifle. It is a very simple and reliable system when used with ammunition especially configured for proper operation of the counter weight and spring. The design's worst faults are that the rifles, though of a takedown design, are extremely difficult to detail strip, are heavy for their size, and require rigid attention to ammunition specifications to strike a proper balance with the mechanical properties of the design.

A .22 rim fire version of the Winchester semi-auto design first hit the market in 1903. The Model 1903 rifle used a special .22 Winchester Automatic rim fire cartridge, which was only loaded with smokeless powder. The likely purpose of the special cartridge was to keep the then common black powder .22 Long Rifle ammunition out of the new design. Messy black powder would have gummed up the works in short order.

In 1905 the first two center fire S.L. rifles and cartridges were introduced by Winchester. The Model 1905 was offered in two chamberings, the .32 S.L. or the .35 S.L. cartridges. These rifles were advertised as suitable for big game but the cartridges were low-powered duds. The Model 1905 had little to offer other than the novelty of semi-automatic operation. These rounds quickly faded from the shooting scene when the Winchester Model 1907 and competitive semi-auto rifles were introduced to the hunting market.

Two years later Winchester sought to improve on the deficiencies of the Model 1905 and its weak cartridges with the introduction of the Model 1907. Its new .351 S.L. cartridge boasted a 180 grain bullet with a muzzle velocity of 1850 fps and muzzle energy of 1370 foot-pounds. Early factory advertising obviously wanted to tout the power now available in the Self Loading line of rifles with the slogan "The Rifle That Shoots Through Steel." The ad didn't specify how thick the steel was however.

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.351 Ballistics*

Factory loads

Western 180 grain soft point(very old), MV 1738 fps, ME 1210 ft./lbs.
Winchester 180 grain FMJ (very old), MV 1962 fps, 1536 ft./lbs
Winchester 180 grain soft point (late '80s production), MV 1924 fps, ME 1480 ft./lbs.

Handloads

Winchester 180 grain soft point
19.0 grains 2400, MV 1833 fps, ME 1343 ft./lbs.

Lyman No. 357446 162 grain Lead SWC (for the .38 Special)
4.8 grains Unique, MV 1059, ME 400 ft./lbs. (This load put up in
.38 Special cases and fired singly from the rifle. Don't do this
at home kiddies).

*Fired over an Oehler Model 12 chronograph
Rifle used: Winchester Model 1907 .351 w/20-inch barrel


One more Self Loading rifle was created using the design, the Model 1910 .401 S.L. rifle. The most powerful of the self loading line, this cartridge offered some pretty impressive short-range ballistics. With this chambering Winchester had exhausted the design's limited capabilities. The Self Loading rifle couldn't be made in cartridges that offered more power for the guns would have become to heavy and unwieldy. It is said that a Self Loading rifle designed to handle the .30-06 would have had to utilize a counter weight weighing some 27 lbs.

Winchester was depending on the Self Loading rifles to compete with the Remington produced Model 1908 semi-automatic rifle, designed by John Browning. Browning and already spent a few years perfecting this recoil operated design. What was worse, Browning had become dissatisfied with Winchester treatment of him when he offered them some of his latest designs so he went calling on Remington which garnered a few really good firearms designs from him, much to Winchester's chagrin.

A Reasonable Medium Powered Field Cartridge

I've always thought that the .351 was the cartridge that the M1 Carbine should have chambered. The .351 S.L. can be thought of as a .30 Carbine cartridge on goat glands. Its .351" diameter 180 grain bullet possesses very nearly the same muzzle velocity as the .30 Carbine round but offers more bullet diameter and weight which translates into significantly more "punch". I'm sure the carbine and its gas tappet system could have been designed around this larger round. The resulting rifle would have of necessity been a little heavier but would have served the War Department's original purpose most admirably.

The Model 1907 .351 was sold to sportsmen with indifferent success. In its day it was the most expensive rifle in the Winchester catalog. It was given a much longer lease on life through its acceptance by the law enforcement agencies of the day. The short, handy rifle could be handled from horseback or in the patrol car with equal ease. Its moderately powered cartridge was sufficient for law enforcement requirements. The U.S Border Patrol was an early user of the Model 1907 as were some Texas rangers, and a number of other law enforcement agencies across the nation. The bad guys also made use of this compact rifle. A Model 1907 was among the weapons found by lawmen in the arsenal left behind following Dillinger's Little Bohemia shoot out and Harvey Bailey, one of Machine Gun Kelly's henchmen, was captured while asleep on a porch with his Model 1907 .351.

Foreign nations took delivery on quantities of Model 1907 rifles as well. France in particular acquired the Model 1907 to arm its early aviators in World War I. Some of these French contract rifles ended up being used in the trenches of Western Europe. Some have turned up which were modified in French arsenals to take the French Mle. 1892 bayonet.

Winchester pursued law enforcement sales with improvements to the Model 1907 such as heavier stocks, sling swivels, and steel butt plates. They offered slings, ammunition featuring fully jacketed bullets, and 10-round magazines (now quite rare) to make the rifle more suitable for police work. They had a modicum of success with police sales for many years. I've seen several references to magazines with capacities larger than 10 rounds but have never seen one or read of a reference in Winchester literature of the day describing a factory magazine with a larger capacity than 10 rounds. Perhaps there were aftermarket magazines available. I have an old aftermarket magazine that holds 7 rounds.

After remaining in the Winchester catalog for half a century the Model 1907, or Model 07 as it was called by then, was finally discontinued in 1957. Winchester loaded factory ammunition until 1988.

The police department of my own community maintained three Winchester Model 1907's in its armory until at least the mid 1980's. They stood along with various riot shotguns in a long gun cabinet behind glass doors in the dispatcher's office. I used to bug them to sell the old '07's to me until they finally covered the glass with aluminum foil. One officer I know said the last time he could recollect that they were issued was in the late 1970's when an inmate escaped from the County Jail and was later found lurking in Buffalo Creek.

A Collectors' Dud

Model 1907 rifles have not attained the collectible status that other more famous Winchester products enjoy. Its a shame really as they served in a very colorful period of American law enforcement and hunting history. They are very well made of finest steel and walnut with much admirable machine work and fitting. If a film were released featuring an old time Border Patrol theme such as the era when Charles Askins served, the Model 1907 might achieve stardom and become a hot item on the collector's market. Who knows? As it is they languish far behind the more glamorous Winchester lever guns in popularity and value.

I've owned two Model 1907 .351 rifles. The first one was a junker purchased as a parts gun for next to nothing. Other than the fore end being cracked and broken, a common Self Loader problem, it was complete. I repaired it and used it for some years. My best ol' gun buddy Cres Lawson gave me his .351 in about 1998. He'd purchased it brand new from Wm. Crites gun shop in San Antonio, Texas in 1923, paying $42.00 for it, a box of ammo, a wooden cleaning rod, and a bottle of Winchester Crystal Cleaner. He took his first deer with this rifle. He mounted a Lyman tang sight on it and a two-leaf Winchester express sight on its barrel and deer hunted with it off and on until 1940. On one occasion his father took a deer at over 300 steps with this rifle. It went to Dallam County, Texas near Dalhart on an antelope hunt as a spare rifle in 1950 or 1951. Cres said it was the first year that Dallam County had allowed antelope hunting in a long time and five tags were issued. He said game records for the county will show that among the other cartridges used, one antelope was taken with a .351. He loaned his rifle to a member of his hunting party who used it to take an antelope. The last time the rifle was used before I acquired it was for a javalina hunt in 1970. Cres brought the caped javalina head back to his motel in Kerrville, Texas in an ice chest and left it outside the door overnight. The ice chest was stolen and he used to chuckle when he'd think about the thief opening it.

I used the rifle to take an 8-point buck just before Cres passed away. I'd carried it into a tall deer stand on a lease in Coleman County, Texas. Not long after the sun rose a decent 8-point buck appeared about 150 yards out from me. Now the '07 has a crisp trigger pull as do all classic Winchester rifles I've seen but it breaks at about 10 lbs. Cres used to say it took "two men and a boy" to pull its trigger. I didn't want to chance a shot at that distance so waited. There was an wide opening between two live oak trees about 45 yards from me and I figured on the buck crossing there. He did all right, running and chasing a doe offering no chance for me to plug him as he flashed by.

I sat for a couple more hours but saw nothing else that morning so stiffly got down out of the stand. I determined to stalk my way back up the creek that ran beside my stand, in the direction the buck was traveling. I slipped along through the scrub oak and mesquite for several hundred yards until I came to the junction of a smaller creek. It had rained a lot the weekend before and was still very muddy so I followed the smaller creek for a ways looking for fresh tracks. I was so intend on track watching that I was practically on top of my buck before I noticed him. There he stood at 35 yards, upwind and with the sun in his eyes, alarmed but not skedaddling yet. He was quartering away from me with his left side exposed. I picked a spot low at the back of his left rib cage and, using the express sight, placed a bullet just were I aimed.

At the shot the deer flinched, drawing up his left front leg. He began a weaving, wobbly lope for 20 yards, crashing into the underbrush beneath a live oak tree. When I walked up to him he was stone dead. The bullet had cut the back rib, passed through him and exited his right shoulder after punching through the front of the shoulder blade.

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I quickly field dressed him, gathered him up, and after the obligatory photo op taken by my dad, beat a path home in order to show the deer to Cres. He could no longer see but came out to the pickup to feel the deer's antlers. We were both tickled pink over the experience.



Working With the Obsolete Old Cartridge

The Self Loading line of cartridges are only suitable for "post-graduate" handloaders who are also fans of the rifles (read that as nitwits who are hard-up for something fun to do). Ammunition is scarce and expensive. No other cartridge can be reformed easily to proper dimensions. The rifle flings cases far and wide. The bore diameter of a Model 1907 is a true .351 inches. I'd read once in some old publication that .38 Special and .357 Magnum cartridges could be fired in the .351. I tried this in my old junker Model '07 with some success. One must be willing to use the rifle as a single shot as the rimmed cartridges won't feed into the magazines. Remember that these revolver bullets are of .357 diameter. While it worked for me I'D NOW CAUTION AGAINST USING ANY AMMUNITION OTHER THAN FOR WHICH THE ARM IS CHAMBERED. I've done some experiments with the heavier 9mm pistol bullets, which measure .354 in diameter. I used these bullets in the .351 cases with some success as well. If the load is too light then the action chomps the case in a sideways "stovepipe." This wastes the precious .351 cases. A functioning load may still not be properly regulated for the rifle's weight and spring system and may harmfully batter the action. One's best bet is to cast bullets properly sized for the bore, or to purchase expensive jacketed bullets of proper diameter from specialty manufacturers. I got some from Ol' Western Scrounger but several suppliers may be found by "Googling .351 bullets." Gad would be another great source.

The Model 1907 was the only rifle of the Self Loading series to gain some popularity in its day. The other Self Loading rifles of the series were commercial flops. The Model 1903 and it special .22 rim fire cartridge were doomed with the ascendancy of smokeless powder and non-corrosive priming. The rim fire cartridge didn't live on into the Model 63 which was the same basic design but chambered for the much more popular .22 Long Rifle cartridge. The Model 1905 was gone from the Winchester catalog by 1921, hamstrung by its ineffective cartridges. The Model 1910, to my way of thinking, should have been the star of the Self Loading series. The .401 S.L offers real short range performance and should have been more successful. It wasn't and the rifle was discontinued after 1936. It is said by some that the Model 1910 was a bit brutal on the butt end.

The Remington Model 8 and its successor models took the semiautomatic rifle market away from the Winchester Self Loaders. Comparatively few Self Loading rifles were made. The Winchester semi-auto rifle was very expensive to manufacture and fired cartridges of less power and range than the competition's rifle. The cartridges themselves were always an expensive item. The long forgotten Self Loading rifles are now only a small footnote in the history of arms development.
 
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bmcgilvray; That is a great post. I know the M-1 Carbine is a different action design, but have always thought the 30 Carbine ammo to be the last of the SL line. I also agree M-1 Carbine would be a different and better gun if it was in 351SL. I've always wanted a 401SL, and Bell Brass was to bring out brass back in the late 80's, but PMC put an end to that. Thanks for posting more than anyone would want to know about Winchester Self Loading rifles. Ivan
 
I have since found out that cases from regular 357 mag. can be used to make 351 SL , they are a tad short but the round hearspaces on its rim, the rim still needs to be turned down and an extractor groove cut, but they will feed and fire O. K.

You might have to use a combination of dies to assemble loaded ammo. such as 9mm or 38 super to size upper part of case and 357 mag. to seat and crimp bullet, it's going to be a trail and error thing. Definitly size the bullets to 351/352 in a Lee or Lyman sizer...357 dia. will jack up the pressure to a could be dangerous to your health level. Still no luck finding a set of dies...custom dies are rediculously priced.

Gary
 
I recently purchased a 1907 Winchester that had 2 mags and one round of ammo. I have been researching and trying to figure out how to shoot it, and still be able to afford an occasional burger! I recently read that brass could be made from a trimmed .223 case. I cut 10 .223 cases to 1.38", primed them with cci 400 primers, dumped in 9 gr of unique, topped all that off with a lee 158 gr SWC, sized in a homemade sizer to .349, and headed to the range. the 1st 5 did not cycle the action, I had to eject the brass after each shot. The next 5 shot and ejected fine. The load seemed to be too light for consistent cycling. I have ordered some .351 bullets from Grafs for around $15/100, and am ready to start experimenting with some mag pistol powders, and start enjoying this fine old rifle!
 
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