medic15al
Member
In 1973 what were the good 357 defense ammo available then? My dad was talking about it but the only load he mentioned was the Super-Vel.
357 ammo in 1973
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Super-Vel was the first that came to my mind but I know that Remington HTP is an old load (110, 125, 158, or 180-gr SJHP), though I'm not sure exactly how old?
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
I'm not an ammo guru, but when I think of that caliber, the 125gr HP 357B round stands out. Might have been most responsible for development of the "L" frame.
Lee Jurras and his Super Vel 110-grain JHP .357 were king of the hill in the early 1970s.
Jurras and Super Vel were the driving force behind the excellent ammunition the Big Boy Companies produce today.
Jurras and Super Vel were the driving force behind the excellent ammunition the Big Boy Companies produce today.
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OP
medic15al
Member
This is great info! I appreciate the responses and looking forward to more memories of this.
agent00
Member
That is a very interesting thread for somebody like me who is interested in the small arms and ammunition history.
BTW what was the standard load for the 357 mag before the advent of the lighter bullets? Some 158 grain wadcutter or lead round nose bullets?
BTW what was the standard load for the 357 mag before the advent of the lighter bullets? Some 158 grain wadcutter or lead round nose bullets?
olskool
Member
I know speer made the lawman ammo in the late 70s I am not sure about 73 in particular. they had a hexagon shaped HP that looked wicked,,,,,,,
Can't remember the brand(s) .... but Dad had lots of boxes marked; "Law Enforcement Only" or some such.
Ammo was loose in small 3x3x3" Boxes....nickle cases; semi-jacketed hollow points.
Ammo was loose in small 3x3x3" Boxes....nickle cases; semi-jacketed hollow points.
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elpac3
Member
SuperVel was king of the hill for LEO's. I know a number of guys who carried the 110's. The 110's were wicked fast but the drawback with the 110's were lack of penetration. One shooting we had, a perp was shot on the shoulder blade without the round penetrating the shoulder blade - blew up on the bone. Another issue was the 110's were no good at penetrating a windshield.
Personally I carried the 137 grain loads. Good penetration, could penetrate a car door or heavy clothing and bone. Worked well int he 4" M19.
Personally I carried the 137 grain loads. Good penetration, could penetrate a car door or heavy clothing and bone. Worked well int he 4" M19.
Being an 'oldie' and shooting 357 back then,the Super Vels and Remington 125gr SJHP.
True! Mr. Jurras has left the range now but when I think of him I always wonder if the big ammo manufacturers still wouldn't be kicking out 158-gr LSWCs by the millions if it weren't for him. He was an interesting gentleman, and a real shooter! He once told me he must have literally worn out a dozen Super Blackhawks shooting his ammunition - the cost for which, of course, came out of his own pocket. From what I knew of him, I didn't doubt it.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
Ah this rings back memories! When I got my first handgun in '74 (a 67) my dad gave it to me with two boxes of Super Vels. That was the go to ammo back then.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
The mid-to-late 1960's saw a number of ammunition developments, notably the SuperVel line, but also increasing use of jacketed bullets in revolver calibers. By 1973 most of the ammo makers were offering jacketed soft point and jacketed hollow point bullets in .357 and most other revolver calibers. Actual performance varied considerably.
Jacketed revolver bullets really started taking off during the 1960's. Speer and Sierra offered a pretty broad range of choices in both JSP and JHP designs for handloaders. The rapidly growing popularity of these bullets is probably what propelled the mainstream ammo manufacturers to get into the game.
The first .357 ammo I recall purchasing was Federal 158JSP in 1973. I still have the box with a price tag of $5.97 (50 rounds). Shooting factory .357 in my 4" Model 19 quickly convinced me that it was a very uncomfortable experience.
In 1974 I purchased a 2.5" Model 19 ($149 NIB, took me several months to pay it off on the "layaway" plan). I tried the SuperVel 125JHP's in the snub. Not only was the recoil and muzzle blast extremely heavy, I found that I had to use a dowel rod and mallet to remove the fired cases from the chambers. I stuck with .38 Special +P thereafter (as I recall the +P loads were just becoming available at that time); I remember buying Remington 125SJHP, Winchester 125JHP, and Federal 158SWC-HP (so-called FBI load). I did carry some WW .357 158 armor-piercing ammo while on patrol, thinking that it might be handy to have in the event of a barricaded subject incident (tried it on an old wrecked car and found that it would shoot through the grill and radiator and still break the water pump housing; also shot straight through concrete blocks).
I have not purchased any .357 ammo since the mid-1970's. I handload .357, but I use fairly mild loads, typically a good 10% below recommended max loads. For what it may be worth, I have used those loads on deer twice, and a spike elk once, resulting in clean kills and only one bullet that did not exit the body (cast 150SWC-HP bullets), possibly due to passing through a rib on entry, then lodging against a rib on the far side.
These, and other experiences, have convinced me that .357 magnum is excessive for defensive use, particularly in populated areas.
My $0.02 worth.
Jacketed revolver bullets really started taking off during the 1960's. Speer and Sierra offered a pretty broad range of choices in both JSP and JHP designs for handloaders. The rapidly growing popularity of these bullets is probably what propelled the mainstream ammo manufacturers to get into the game.
The first .357 ammo I recall purchasing was Federal 158JSP in 1973. I still have the box with a price tag of $5.97 (50 rounds). Shooting factory .357 in my 4" Model 19 quickly convinced me that it was a very uncomfortable experience.
In 1974 I purchased a 2.5" Model 19 ($149 NIB, took me several months to pay it off on the "layaway" plan). I tried the SuperVel 125JHP's in the snub. Not only was the recoil and muzzle blast extremely heavy, I found that I had to use a dowel rod and mallet to remove the fired cases from the chambers. I stuck with .38 Special +P thereafter (as I recall the +P loads were just becoming available at that time); I remember buying Remington 125SJHP, Winchester 125JHP, and Federal 158SWC-HP (so-called FBI load). I did carry some WW .357 158 armor-piercing ammo while on patrol, thinking that it might be handy to have in the event of a barricaded subject incident (tried it on an old wrecked car and found that it would shoot through the grill and radiator and still break the water pump housing; also shot straight through concrete blocks).
I have not purchased any .357 ammo since the mid-1970's. I handload .357, but I use fairly mild loads, typically a good 10% below recommended max loads. For what it may be worth, I have used those loads on deer twice, and a spike elk once, resulting in clean kills and only one bullet that did not exit the body (cast 150SWC-HP bullets), possibly due to passing through a rib on entry, then lodging against a rib on the far side.
These, and other experiences, have convinced me that .357 magnum is excessive for defensive use, particularly in populated areas.
My $0.02 worth.
OP
medic15al
Member
I remember dad carrying the Lawman load for the 45 ACP. Came in a yellow plastic box.
Had names like Agent, Deputy, Marshal, ETC.. for each different load.
LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
Prior to jacketed bullets in factory loads the most common .357 factory ammo featured 158SWC bullets. Those soft lead swaged bullets had a reputation for heavy leading in .357 revolvers. All sorts of products were offered to help make cleaning easier (notably the Lewis Lead Remover tools, with woven brass patches intended to cut the lead out of chambers, forcing cones, and bores).
agent00
Member
Yes super vel is back but according to their homepage they have no 357 mag in stock yet.
supervel | Buy Ammunition
Not sure as well if they have much to too with the original super vel ammo though.
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Speer used to chronograph factory loads and published the results in their load manuals. #8 was published around 1970 and they didn't do a #9 until '74. The results posted in #9 for .357 (and other) factory ammo was quite optimistic in most instances. Actual velocities were often several hundred feet per second less than advertised figures. Of course, few individuals had chronographs then.
Some years ago, I wound up with some Super Vel bullets that the company sold as components. I believe they were either 110 grain or 125. They were undersized in comparison with other such bullets, measuring .355" or .356" ( don't recall exactly). This may have been one way the company kept velocity up and pressure down. Probably didn't do much for accuracy, but I think accuracy was a secondary consideration with such ammo.
Some years ago, I wound up with some Super Vel bullets that the company sold as components. I believe they were either 110 grain or 125. They were undersized in comparison with other such bullets, measuring .355" or .356" ( don't recall exactly). This may have been one way the company kept velocity up and pressure down. Probably didn't do much for accuracy, but I think accuracy was a secondary consideration with such ammo.
