357 Diameter Coated Bullets for a 986?

[cds43016]

I have a S&W 986 that I shoot 9 mm SNS 125 grain RN coated bullets. I shoot these also in my Walther PPQ Q5 with excellent accuracy and zero leading.

I measured my cylinder throats on the 986 and they appear to be about .357. The SNS bullets drop right through the cylinder. The SNS bullets are .356 as are most commercial 9mm coated bullets. Why the cylinder throats are .357 for a 9 mm is something I don't get.

The 986 is very temperamental. Accuracy is OK but can be better.

I found very mild leading so far which is easy enough to remove with a brush. My 686 also uses coated bullets and there is no leading at all and is very accurate. However, the coated bullet diameter is at or slightly above the cylinder throat diameter.

I would like to find some quality .357 diameter coated bullets at 124 or 125 grains that I can load in my 9 mm to see if it will reduce leading and tighten groups up a bit. Are they available and from where? Not sure I want to try .358 and potentially run into chambering issues with the 986 or Walther.

All I can find is commercial coated bullets at .356 or .355.

Hopefully they will also chamber in my Walther.

Also, is there anything special I need for reloading these larger diameter bullets in a 9mm case or the 986 in particular? I guess my LEE Factory Crimp Die is out.

Thanks!

 

[bigggbbruce]

This wouldn't be the first time S&W got the throat size wrong. I'd give them a call and ask talk to someone that knows what you are talking about. Maybe they have some cylinders with the proper size.

 

[cds43016]

This wouldn't be the first time S&W got the throat size wrong. I'd give them a call and ask talk to someone that knows what you are talking about. Maybe they have some cylinders with the proper size.

I found this tread on the 929. It seems .357 is by design.



929 finally

 

[Joe4d]

Missouri Bullets has coated .357 round noses. Click on the 38 super bullets.
Missouri Bullet Company

 

[MNgun]

I recently acquired a 986 and the best shooting load I have found as of yet uses a .358 coated LRN. Anything smaller is rather sketchy. Fun fun gun, just ordered a mount for my Vortex Venom. Looking forward to getting it on.

 

[dannyabear]

Bayoubullets.net

 

[Walkingwolf]

It's a revolver just use 38/357 design bullets. As far as accuracy is the barrel broken in yet? I found it takes a couple hundred jacketed rounds to lap a new gun. Or you could fire lap it.

My newest smith 625PC after 100 jacketed rounds became a tack driver with PC, and lubed rounds.

 

[dogdoc]

Eggleston munitions has 9 mm 357 bullets maybe 358 as well. I find 145 or 147 grain shoot by far the best in my 929. Try some sport pistol powder by alliant

 

[Psweigle]

As was mentioned, coated 38 super bullets will be your best bet, but, if you cant find any, pm me and i will make you some up to try.

 

[cds43016]

Thanks for the info.

Right now I can't test anything. My 986 is back at Smith & Wesson for the second time. I was getting far too many light strikes even with factory ammo firing double action. The first repair helped some but did not solve the problem.

I checked the obvious before I sent it it. Strain screw was tight etc.

So disappointing especially for such an expensive gun.

Still don't understand why the cylinder throats are so large. I asked the Smith & Wesson Customer Rep and he had no idea.

It's a fun gun to shoot - when it goes off.

 

[shocker]

Thanks for the info.

Right now I can't test anything. My 986 is back at Smith & Wesson for the second time. I was getting far too many light strikes even with factory ammo firing double action. The first repair helped some but did not solve the problem.

I checked the obvious before I sent it it. Strain screw was tight etc.

So disappointing especially for such an expensive gun.

Still don't understand why the cylinder throats are so large. I asked the Smith & Wesson Customer Rep and he had no idea.

It's a fun gun to shoot - when it goes off.

Light strikes DA - what's your trigger technique like? My recent K-frame will light strike if I try to stage the trigger but goes bang every time with a continuous trigger pull.

 

[cds43016]

Light strikes DA - what's your trigger technique like? My recent K-frame will light strike if I try to stage the trigger but goes bang every time with a continuous trigger pull.

I have no problem with my 686 or 617 double action. I also let a friend fire it and he had the same problem.

 

[muddocktor]

If you go to Bayou Bullets and check under their .38/.357 offerings, you will see their 9MM designs also offered with .358 sizing. They make some quality bullets with Hy Tek coating.

Like dannyabear said, Bayou Bullets

 

[rockquarry]

If you try a variety of Smith & Wesson and Colt revolvers, young & old, in .38 Special and .357 Magnum, you'll find a surprising number of these guns that won't accept a .358" diameter in the cylinder throats, while a .357" bullet can be pushed through, though often quite snugly.

To further complicate matters, Colt bores are tighter than S&W generally, but Colt chamber throats are usually a hair larger in diameter. Regardless, most of us that shoot cast bullets use .358" diameter sizing to keep things simple. I've found most S&Ws actually shoot with greater accuracy using .357" bullets, but this becomes a hair-splitting exercise if you're shooting at no more than 25 yards.

As for 9mm accuracy and non-jacketed bullets, some do best with .357, most with .358", and a few with .359". I don't bother slugging bores; using the largest diameter bullet that will allow chambering without difficulty has always worked best.

Always use a micrometer for bullet measuring. A caliper isn't much better than a ruler for making such precise measurements.

 

[MNgun]

Thanks for the info.

Right now I can't test anything. My 986 is back at Smith & Wesson for the second time. I was getting far too many light strikes even with factory ammo firing double action. The first repair helped some but did not solve the problem.

I checked the obvious before I sent it it. Strain screw was tight etc.

So disappointing especially for such an expensive gun.

Still don't understand why the cylinder throats are so large. I asked the Smith & Wesson Customer Rep and he had no idea.

It's a fun gun to shoot - when it goes off.

I'd be interested to hear what the resolution is for the light strikes. I have had a few but suspect it was my trigger pull. Dunno....

 

[cds43016]

I finally got my 986 back from Smith & Wesson. The paperwork said they adjusted the yoke and the sear. The first time the repair was to the yoke and frame. Not much detail on each except a bunch of numbers that I can't decode.

I tested the gun with factory ammo and no light strikes. So far so good.

I tried my standard 9 mm reload consisting of SNS 125 grain RN coated bullets over 4.1 grains of 231 with CCI primers in Federal cases with an OAL of 1.125. No light strikes but I did notice some slight leading near the forcing cone after just a few rounds. It may become a mess after a 100 or so rounds if I continue to shoot them. The factory rounds were FMJ and didn't lead.

I believe the leading is most likely due to the oversize chamber throats (.357+). This seems to be by design in the 986 and 929. Why I will never understand. Lead bullets should be a thousandth over the throat size. The SNS bullets at .356 are just too small.

No problem at all with my Walther PPQ Q5 with this load.

I will order some sample 124 grain bullets in .357 and 358 from Eggleston and Bayou and see if that helps.

I hoped to use just one load in both guns. It seems this may not work out. I've been surfing the internet and it appears the 986 and 929 like heavier bullets. If the 124 grain bullets aren't accurate, I will try 145-147 grain coated bullets in the larger diameters.

Any favorite 145-147 loads for the 986 or its cousin the 929?

I must start over if I have to go to the heavier bullet so I 'm more open to try different powders than 231. 231 loads for these bullet weights and powder combination are scarce. I would like a powder that is more than just a dusting in the case to avoid missing a double charge. I have the Lyman Cast Bullet manual and check the powder manufactures web sites but there is no substitute for experience to be pointed in the right direction. Some bullet and powder combinations just seem to go together especially in a usual combination as a 9mm revolver. I know each gun is different, but any information is better than starting at square one.

I will have to retire my Lee Factory Crimp die with these larger bullets.

I just shoot for fun mostly at 25 yards. My match days are over.

The 986 is a specialty piece but is fun to shoot. I hope I can find a light shooting accurate load for it as I have for my 686 and Walther.

Thanks for all the help!

 

[reddog81]

I can't see how adjusting the yoke and sear will help with light strikes, but I hope is works out for you this time. My 929 gets light strikes with CCI primers, so I just stick with Federal. I'd like to try a stiffer rebound spring but I haven't looked into it much...

For reloads in my 929 I can't find anything better than 3.6 grains N340 in a 9x21 case using any lead bullet from 147 to 160 grains sized to .357. It's a light load in the 9x21 case and pushes the bullets to about 850 FPS. certain combos have had a SD under 10 FPS. The .357 bullet can be pushed into the throat with medium force and will not fall out unless pushed. These loads work well out to 100 yards.

At first I was also a little put off by the use of a .357 throat and a chamber that will accept 9x21 cases however after having the gun for a year I couldn't be happier. The .357 throats allow for the use of .38/.357 caliber bullets which has a much wider selection of bullets and the 9x21 case gives you a little safety more leeway on hot loads or loads with large (147+ grain) bullets.

 

[Forrest r]

You have a couple things going on at the same time, you need to break it down into steps.

You have to decide if your reloads will be gun specific or used in every firearm that's chambered in 9mm. Take fired cases from each firearm and plunk test them in your other firearm. Also measure them, this is telling you the max bullet diameter you can use and still have your reloads chamber in every firearm or ammo specific firearm.
The next thing you need to do is ditch the lee fcd and the lee factory expander. You want to be able to protect the base of the bullet by using a longer expander that's designed for larger in diameter bullets for the caliber. A lyman m-die.

A lot of people use a lee 38s&w expander for their cast/coated/larger in diameter 9mm bullets. Others buy custom expanders from places like noe moulds.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/
I made a custom expander for my 9mm reloads & use the same reloads in 3 different firearms chambered in 9mm. A lee factory expander that is designed for the smaller in diameter shorter jacketed bullets next to my custom expander.

Take the measurements from the used cases and compare that measurement to your reloaded cases with .355"/.356"/.357"/.358" bullets. You will find the largest bullet diameter you can use. Then take your lee fcd die and run that "largest" reload thru it and re=measure. That's telling you how much your swaging that bullet down. Myself, I don't use a lee fcd every time I get 1 I give it away.

I use nothing but .358" bullets in the 9mm, 38spl & 357's. 2 of my favorite bullets to use in the 9mm. They are a 125gr fn (green) and a 100+year old design (red) the lyman 35870 hb bullet. They are both sized to .358" and seated to the same oal.

What you don't see is wasp waist, bullet bulge or bulged cases at the base of the bullet. This is accomplished by using the correct expander for the diameter & length of the bullet + a simple taper crimp.
A 500+ range session with the 1911 9mm and .358" home cast/coated bullets.

What the bbl looks like

1 wet patch (hope's #9) and 1 dry patch later, the bbl.'s clean. No scrubbing/brushes/nada, just cloth patches.

If it was me, I'd be taking a hard look at .358" bullets for my 9mm/38spl/357 needs.

 

[cds43016]

I also don't understand how the repairs Smith & Wesson made to my 986 fixed the light strike problem. But it doesn't matter. I took it to the range today and fired another box of factory ammo. That's over 170 rounds without a light strike firing double action. I think the issue is solved.

I received in the mail today sample packs of 124 grain coated bullets from Eggleston Munitions in .357 and .358 sizes.

The .357 will drop into the chamber throats and the .358 won't. I will try both using my standard 231 load for accuracy and leading. My money is on the .358. I just hope I don't have chambering issues.

I ordered a new taper crimp die and will not use my Lee Factory Crimp Die for these bullets. It may be later next week before I can test

I already use the Lyman M Die for coated bullets in my 357 and 9mm. I was never able to get a nice flare using the Lee dies on my LNL AP press. They work but adjustment is limited on this particular press. The dies are a little short.

I hope the 124's work. Ideally, they will work in both the 986 and Walther. But I've already reconciled myself that they may not.

I have over 2,500 SNS bullets and they shoot very well in the Walther. I will still try to get a common load, but if I can't I still can share the brass and primers between the two. Even if I found one, it would be awhile before I could use it with so many SNS bullets on hand. Unfortunately, they don't play well with the 986.

It's interesting hearing about 9x21 cases in the 929. Never would have thought about doing that. But I have over 2,000 9mm cases and I will limit myself to those since I just shoot for fun.

As I wait for my new taper crimp die, I've been researching 147 grain loads for the 986/929 just in case. They are all over the place. Some recommend fast powders like Tightgroup and others slower powders like WSF and HS-6. I found nothing recently published for 231 for coated bullets. I use 231 now for 357 Mag light loads and 9mm. It works great for both, meters well, shoots clean and is the only powder I currently use. I prefer having at least one, preferably two, published sources for a load.

Hodgdon only lists WSF on their website for 147 grain lead bullets. I may try it, if needed, although I would prefer a powder that fills the case better. Recommendations?

The 986 is an odd duck for 9mm and is turning out to be more a challenge than I originally thought. The light strikes didn't help.

Any and all guidance is appreciated.

 

[cds43016]

I tried my first .358 bullets in my 986. They were Eggleston 124 grain coated bullets. I loaded them using my standard load of 4.1 grains of W231 with one exception. I loaded them to 1.130 OAL instead of my normal 1.125. The Eggleston bullets are longer than the SNS coated bullets I normally load.

I tried a few bullets sized to .357 but they would drop straight through the chamber throats. The .358 sized bullets would not. The same as they both do in my 686.

There was no leading and informal off hand accuracy was acceptable. I fired over 70 rounds. The SNS .356 Bullets showed signs of leading after just a few rounds. The .356 SNS bullets are just to small for the 986 chamber throats.

I will work on refining the load for accuracy later when I settle on a bullet. I ordered some 124 grain Bayou Bullets sized .358 for testing.

I used a Hornady Taper crimp die instead of my normal LEE Factory Crimp Die. A quick test showed the LEE Factory Crimp Die was swaging the bullet. Not what I'm looking for here, but it works great for my Walther. I never had a failure to feed in the Walther and accuracy is excellent with the SNS bullets without leading.

I'm not happy with the flare needed to load the .358 bullets. I use a Lyman 9 mm M-die. It works perfectly with the SNS Bullets and my LEE Bullet Seater. The M-die produces a perfect flare. Not so much with the .358 bullets. I'm having trouble getting the adjustment right. To get the bullets to seat straight on the case, the flare seems excessive and shallow. I worry if I go any more flare the case will not fit the LEE Bullet Seater die and I'm beating the brass to death. It's working but there must be a better way. As indicated above, by Forrest r I need to try a different longer expander. I thought the M-Die would do but it's not working as well as I would like at least with the bullets I tested with. I contacted NOE Bullet Mold about their expanders, and they seem like they can help. I'll see.

Loading for the 986 has been more of a challenge than I thought. I've loaded tens of thousands of rounds over the years, but never have I tried to stuff ten pounds in a one-pound bag before. The 9mm case is a very small odd shaped bag. I'm determined to make this work. However, I want to keep the journey as simple as possible

Any and all advice is appreciated.

Thanks!!!!