.357 Magnum 125 grain bullets and Blue Dot....

[canoeguy]

Someone posted here not long ago that thier reloading manual contained a warning advising against loading .357 Magnum 125 grain jacketed bullets with Blue Dot powder. They didn't say what the warning entailed.

Any one else hear of such a warning? I have about 150 rounds of 125 grain jacketed bullets, loaded with 12.5 grains Blue Dot that I assembled in 2004 or so. I quit shooting them in my Model 66 upon hearing warnings against shooting 125 grainers in K frame revolvers, but was thinking of running them through my Marlin 1894 rifle.

My Speer reloading manual listed this load, with 13.0 grains Blue Dot being the max reccomended for 125 grain jacketed bullets. According to the manual, 12.5 grains should give 1300 FPS or so....

 

[snw19_357]

I received this last year.

 

[canoeguy]

Wow! Thanks for the heads up. Now I guess I have to pull about 150 .357 loads...

I'm glad I haven't been shooting them!

 

[geoff40]

From the day I first saw this, something about this warning stinks. I have no stake in this and I've never loaded 125s with Blue Dot (loaded some heavier stuff though). I just plain don't see any logic in why 1 bullet weight would be dangerous but not lighter or heavier bullets of the same cartridge. I think somebody at Alliant is full of - - - -, or that behind this warning is some litigation on an event we'll never hear about.

 

[Bib]

Way back 20+ years ago when I began handloading I remember reading an article by one of the gunwriters (can't remember which one) where he stated that he had damage to a handgun using Blue Dot. He had weighed each charge and said that he would never use it again. Since I was just starting out I figured I would avoid that powder and still do to this day.

 

[Paul5388]

I would have to say the warning is highly unusual. It's hard to convince me there is a problem with one bullet weight in .357 Mag and all .41 Mags and nothing else has been affected.

I would also think there would be lot numbers that are recalled if the problem exists in recent production. Powder from 2004 should have exhibited problems long ago or people have been using a potentially dangerous product for 5 years without knowing it.

It all does nothing to instill confidence in Alliant's products or their addressing the situation in a timely manner. That's just like their failure to warn of the propensity of Blue Dot to exhibit high pressure problems when the ambient temperatures get lower than 0 degrees F. That was confirmed by a phone call where I specifically asked about how low the temperature needs to get for the problem to arise.

 

[buck460XVR]

I think somebody at Alliant is full of - - - -,

I am not a scientist or a chemist....I am a reloader. That said, when the manufacturer of powder tells me a certain combination is unsafe, I tend to believe them. I doubt very much if they would lie just to reduce sales or to ward off potential buyers. Again, this warning has been around for over a year and many explanations for why it came about have surfaced. New formulations and newer and better testing equipment are the most prevalent. I believe if you want a better answer you can e-mail Alliant for an answer....I know of many that have. This is what is posted on their website........

At Alliant Powder, we take safety seriously. That's why we periodically test our products in different situations to be sure our use recommendations stay current. Check here for any safety notes or recall information. Stay safe and keep accurate.

Alliant Powder periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that our recommended recipes have not changed over time.

During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder's Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:

* Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
* Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

FWIW.....I've heard from sources that I believe to be reliable that the cold weather/pressure spikes with Bluedot have occured with temps as mild as 20F.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Perspective, it's all perspective!

FWIW.....I've heard from sources that I believe to be reliable that the cold weather/pressure spikes with Bluedot have occured with temps as mild as 20F.

Only from a guy in Alaska can 20F be considered "mild"!

In all seriousness, I remember seeing this phenomenon at temperatures in the area canoe has mentioned. I thought it was kind of weird that I would get 2200fps from a round loaded just like another that gave only 1200fps!

I used Blue Dot when I first started to load magnum cases as it was readily available locally and cheap. After that incident though, I used it for fertilizer.


Mild, short shirt sleeve weather, hey!

 

[LazarusLong]

If anything sounds fishy it's them saying not to use it in .41 mag. What the hell kind of sense does that make? It's ok to use in .357 and .44 but not the cartridge in between?

 

[Alk8944]

If anything sounds fishy it's them saying not to use it in .41 mag. What the hell kind of sense does that make? It's ok to use in .357 and .44 but not the cartridge in between?

Lazarus,

This isn't really pointed at you, but rather everyone who posted something similar.

You are right, it doesn't seem logical! But consider this, don't you think the manufacturer of any product must have a really good reason to publish such specific recommendations/warnings about their own product? This is certainly not something the company would take lightly.

Witness Hodgdon and Winchester for years claiming there was no problem with reduced charges of H-110/296 in spite of masses of anecdotal evidence that guns were being blown up with reduced loads. That situation did not seem logical either, but it is widely known now that this does happen and both manufacturers now publish a strong warning about reducing loads for this (for H-110/296 are identical, same manufacturer), Winchester recommends not reducing more than 3% below their published maximums, and Hodgdon uses 5%. Both publish only a maximum load!

You, and anyone else, can do as you please with the warning, and I know you will. It seems to be, at the very least, exceedingly imprudent to not only argue/disagree but disregard and advise others to do the same concerning a warning issued by any manufacturer about it's own product.

FWIW, I have loaded Blue Dot in virtually no cartridge EXCEPT .41 Magnum for about 35 years with no problems whatsoever. There are other propellants which will do as well, possibly better in this cartridge than Blue Dot, why not accept their warning? It certainly was not issued frivolously or without much corporate soul searching!

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Alk8944,

Guns were being blown up with reduced loads of W296/H110?Where and when?

W296 and H110 give poor burning qualities when downloaded too much.Squib loads can result.Guns blown up?Where and when?Be specific.I don't think you can.

About warnings not to download,I can very vividly remember Winchester advising not to download and that was 40 years ago.What sources of information are you drawing from?

 

[Paul5388]

It certainly was not issued frivolously or without much corporate soul searching!

It probably wasn't, but it also falls into the same category as H110/W296. If there is a problem with two cartridges, then there's a problem that hasn't been addressed properly. In this kind of situation, you don't issue warnings, you issue recalls of the offending products.

You also don't make a blanket warning when people have been safely using Blue Dot loads in .357 and .41 for 30 years. The simple solution is to recall all of it or recall what lots are presenting the problem.

It has to be remembered that everyone doesn't have access to internet warnings and some don't want access!

 

[n4zov]

I don't have a clue why Alliant issued the Blue Dot warning and frankly I do not care! If the guys who make the stuff say it is unsafe to use in such and such a combination, that is good enough for me. Frankly I never found Blue Dot particularly useful in any handgun cartridge I tried it in. Unusual pressure spikes were fairly common, and it never seemed to accomplish anything that another powder didn't do better.

 

[Alk8944]

Alk8944,

Guns were being blown up with reduced loads of W296/H110?Where and when?

W296 and H110 give poor burning qualities when downloaded too much.Squib loads can result.Guns blown up?Where and when?Be specific.I don't think you can.

About warnings not to download,I can very vividly remember Winchester advising not to download and that was 40 years ago.What sources of information are you drawing from?

First, there have been articles in the firearms press for many years related to destruction of revolvers under unexplanable circumstances when using H-110/296. Specific articles, I don't keep magazines mostly so can't cite specific articles. There was something written about this in just about all the magazines by well respected authors and there were many attempts to explain what was happening. Terms were created to express the theories, such as "Pressure Excursions" and "Secondary Explosion Effect". These articles appeared mostly from the mid 80s through the 90s. If you don't recall these either you weren't reading gun magazines during that period or just plain weren't paying attention.

So far as Winchester advising against downloading "40 years ago" what powder are you talking about? 296 did not even exist until 1980 or so!

Just because you don't choose to believe it doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Here are some links to articles about the subject:
http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm
http://www.gunfighter.com/cgi-bin/bbs/cowboy-a/cowboy-a.cgi?read=47714
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-142220.html

Not all specific to H-110/296, but the same issue.

 

[buck460XVR]

Alk8944,

Guns were being blown up with reduced loads of W296/H110?Where and when?

W296 and H110 give poor burning qualities when downloaded too much.Squib loads can result.Guns blown up?Where and when?Be specific.I don't think you can.

I probably can get a pic of a bulged barrel because a friend of mine, like many here, not formally educated in powder manufacturing, thought he knew more about a powder than the manufacturer. Altho he knew of the warnings issued by Hodgdon about downloading H110, he had "safely" been doing it for years. I figure he was just lucky till, about a year ago when he tried to send another bullet down the barrel with a squib still stuck in it. Of course, now it's all Hodgdon's fault.

Again, if you desire not to heed the warnings by those that obviously know more than you do, fine, that is your option, and it's your gun and your azz. But don't recommend to others to follow your lead.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

296 wasn't made until 1980???...Where did you get that????...I'm looking at a Winchester manual right now which was REPRINTED in 1973 which gives data for 296.....and in it,they clearly state that one should not reduce loads because of LOWER PRESSURE CAUSING SQUIBBS....I have been handloading for over 40 years.....One of the powders that I used early on was H110 and H110 and W296 were ALWAYS the same powder.

When too little pressure causes a squibb load and the bullet lodges in the barrel and then someone fires a round behind it,the obstruction in the barrel will cause it to burst.....this has absolutely nothing to do with which powder caused the squibb nor the round that follows it.

Downloading 296 and H110 causes TOO LITTLE PRESSURE.....NOT TOO MUCH!!!!!

You have been making up facts as you go along and now you're pretending otherwise.You can't give the specifics of your claims because there aren't any.

 

[canoe on the yukon]

I just read the links you provided.You said it was not ALL about 296.....Correction......NONE OF IT WAS ABOUT 296.

The write ups you referred to have been well known for many years.Whenever greatly reduced slow rifle powders are used,the burning rate can change,at least in theory.No lab has been able to duplicate this to my knowledge but this is when someone uses a ridiculous undercharge that is very inappropriate for the case and bullet.

In another example,charges that are too light have been accused of causing blow ups when using Bullseye.No lab has ever been able to duplicate it.

After exhaustive tests,no lab can seem to make it happen.Now,getting back to 296......Hodgdon markets the same powder with one name and Winchester markets it under another name.I was using H110 in 1970 and the Winchester manual I referred to was printed at sometime BEFORE 1973.

H110/W296 are extremely popular and have been for a very long time.Come to think of it,Hornady and Sierra are two sources that give data for what many would call reduced loads with this powder.I wonder if they're losing sleep at night.

AGAIN....charges that are too light can result in TOO LITTLE pressure with a distinct possibility of squibbs.

None of this has anything to do with Bluedot.

 

[Skip Sackett]

Two powders that are on the same list as far as I'm concerned!

I haven't used but one pound of Unique in all of my reloading career. I haven't used more than one pound of H110 either. It happens to be on the short list of those powders that I won't ever buy again. I left one out, Blue Dot. I got some when I first started loading 357Mag because I wanted to duplicate the loads that OCD1 showed the box of from UMC. They are 125gr bullets and they really sing as I remembered. In my state of "noviceness" I tried to get to that velocity with Blue Dot. I had a chronograph and that saved me. I shot whatever load over it and had them go from 1200fps to 2200fps. I said, never again, and I switched to the MILSURP powder WC820 that loads like AA#9. I bought 8lbs for $8/lb and have only about half of the jug gone.


FWIW

 

[LazarusLong]

Lazarus,

This isn't really pointed at you, but rather everyone who posted something similar.

You are right, it doesn't seem logical! But consider this, don't you think the manufacturer of any product must have a really good reason to publish such specific recommendations/warnings about their own product? This is certainly not something the company would take lightly.

Witness Hodgdon and Winchester for years claiming there was no problem with reduced charges of H-110/296 in spite of masses of anecdotal evidence that guns were being blown up with reduced loads. That situation did not seem logical either, but it is widely known now that this does happen and both manufacturers now publish a strong warning about reducing loads for this (for H-110/296 are identical, same manufacturer), Winchester recommends not reducing more than 3% below their published maximums, and Hodgdon uses 5%. Both publish only a maximum load!

You, and anyone else, can do as you please with the warning, and I know you will. It seems to be, at the very least, exceedingly imprudent to not only argue/disagree but disregard and advise others to do the same concerning a warning issued by any manufacturer about it's own product.

FWIW, I have loaded Blue Dot in virtually no cartridge EXCEPT .41 Magnum for about 35 years with no problems whatsoever. There are other propellants which will do as well, possibly better in this cartridge than Blue Dot, why not accept their warning? It certainly was not issued frivolously or without much corporate soul searching!

You may be right but my personal theory on it is that some guys blew up their Model 57's with it and then commenced to give a piece of their mind to Alliant who then CYA'd. They know as well as anyone that people are going to use what they are going to use regardless. Why anyone uses it for handguns period is beyond me, it seems like there is a lot of evidence of it being pretty tempermental. IE hitting the extractor rod and having case heads pop out of the cylinder with loads that aren't over manual max.