357 Magnum & Blue Dot confused

[SMSgt]

Not much help to you, but I used Blue Dot in my .41 Mag in Alaska back before it was not recommended. It worked well and was potent. Then all of a sudden it was a no-no.

Don't have that caliber anymore, but BD worked well for me.

 

[MarkL_01]

FWIW, I've used 10gr of blue dot in .357 with 158gr Hornady XTP and with 158gr cast swc in two Ruger Security Six revolvers. Extraction was fine. This load with the XTP duplicates the velocity of the factory load with the same bullet (1130 fps in 2.75" barrel), with cast about 60fps higher. In the 6" barrel, the cast bullet gave about the same velocity as the factory load (1340fps) and I apparently didn't try the XTP reload in the longer barrel. I'm not suggesting that the pressures were equal, but there was no trouble.
-Mark

 

[Doubless]

Not much help to you, but I used Blue Dot in my .41 Mag in Alaska back before it was not recommended. It worked well and was potent. Then all of a sudden it was a no-no.

Don't have that caliber anymore, but BD worked well for me.

I am not sure, but I believe the problem started when Blue Dot was re-formulated. Somehow or another the burn rate changed in certain cartridges at certain charge weights, if memory serves.

But I am wrong a lot. Not as much as when I was married, but still I am wrong a lot.

 

[rwsmith]

I use .357 brass.....

I use .357 brass with my .38 loads. I start with .38 target stuff, then move up to .357 and the cartridges won't chamber because of the crud ring. If you don't want to do that, take a brush along.

Should you use Magnum primers with BD? Inconsistent burn has always been a problems with BD and it is temperature sensitive. Was it particularly hot/cold that day?

Now the real question. Why the sticky extraction? If you are getting an inconsistent burn it may be going too fast and overpressuring the load somewhat. Since BD has a reputation for funky burning it may not do any good to lower the charge slightly, but I think I'd try it.

I prefer to use 2400 in .357 and I'm glad there are other options to BD nowadays.

From Alliant's site:

During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder's Blue Dot® should not be used in the following applications:

Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue Dot® recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
Blue Dot® should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).

Use of Blue Dot® in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

I don't know why a modern powder has to be so finicky and unpredictable. Not a good selling point with me.

 

[Erich]

When Blue Dot works (say, with 180-gr .357 loadings), it really works - I love that powder for these loads. But I loaded something with 158-grainers that was right out of Speer # 10 and just about warped space-time touching them off on a 35°F day. Freaked me out.

BTW, while it's no longer recommended for .41 Mags, I found Blue Dot to work fabulously for that round. Guess I was lucky.

Best of luck with your conundrum, TRE - this is an interesting thread.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I have always felt BD got a bit "twitchy" at close to the top of the load chart... It is, at least to me, rather unpredictable...

I can't imagine what loads, or cartridges, you're shooting in to have such an opinion?

I enjoy trying different combinations of powder weights & bullet types, just to make reloading/shooting more entertaining. I periodically extrapolate loads when needed. I reload for every popular cartridge, even 460 & 500 Magnums, & have NEVER had anything occur with Bluedot in my loads to make me feel it was unsafe. And yes, I load it in my 41 Mag loads too.

It's not my favorite powder & yes it has faults, but it fills a useful niche. Powders don't have to be the best one for a certain cartridge to be useful.

.

Somehow or another the burn rate changed in certain cartridges at certain charge weights, if memory serves.

All powders change their burn rate in different vessels. That's why burn charts rarely agree with each other.

I'd love to see documentation, from a reputable source, that shows Bluedot exhibits unusual & unsafe burn characterics in certain cartridges, with certain weight bullets, in otherwise normal parameters. Anybody?

.

 

[rwsmith]

See Comment # 24

I'd love to see documentation, from a reputable source, that shows Bluedot exhibits unusual & unsafe burn characterics in certain cartridges, with certain weight bullets, in otherwise normal parameters. Anybody?

.

That may not directly answer the question, but Alliant says not to use 125 gr in .357 or ANY loads in the .41. I'll bet they don't understand exactly what it is, but SOMETHING gives them pause about these combinations.

This may be similar to the 'detonation' in some loadings that was blamed on low charges of powder, but turned out almost certainly to be double charges.

 

[S&W HE]

Thanks everyone. I too am leaning towards dirty chambers from 38 loads. I still have 44rds of this Blue Dot load, so when I get back to the range I'll fire them FIRST, from a totally clean gun.

Kinda funny how no matter how experienced you are at reloading, things like this can still crop up sometimes.

TRE

I Agree that your problem is most likely caused by firing 38 Special rounds in 357 Magnum cylinder charge holes.

When shooting with a friend recently, he was unable to load 357 cartridges in his Model 66 357 Mag cylinder due to 38 Special residue in the charge holes. The fix was a brass brush and bore cleaner.

I know I'm in the minority but until recently I had never fired a 38 Special case in a 357 cylinder and have never fired a 44 Special case in a 44 Mag cylinder in any of my revolvers. (I do build 38 and 44 Special velocity loads in the longer cases.)

For the first and only time, for a test, 38 Special rounds were fired in my Model 66 357 Magnum cylinder.

The test went like this;

1. Visually inspected all 6 charge holes verifying all were clean and had no visible rings, marks or imperfections.

2. 24 rounds of 38 Special 158gr 825 fps rounds were fired in the 357 cylinder.

3. The cylinder was removed and the charge holes visually inspected. To no one's surprise there was a powder reside ring in each one.

4. Each charge hole was thoroughly cleaned and inspected. A faint ring was noted after firing only 4 rounds of 38 Special
in each charge hole.

5. The charged holes were re-cleaned letting Hoppe's Bore Cleaner soak for two hours. The faint rings remain in all charge holes.

Over the years I've run across a couple of nice S&W 357s that required a punch and small hammer to eject a factory 357 casings due to charge hole gas erosion from 38 Special loads.

We may differ on this subject but that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Luke Duke]

Blue Dot

I used BD for years when it was Hercules . During the powder shortage I found a 4# keg of Alliant BD. Worst powder ever. All kinds of pressure spikes. Even with start loads flat primers, sticky extraction, pierced primers. Called Alliant and they told me they had a "hot batch" of BD according to the product code . Told me to quit using it and sent me 4# of Unique. I don't think this powder likes air space. In a shotgun or even small cartridges like 9mm ,40 etc. where charges are small and compressed does it work ok. I would avoid BD anymore.

 

[44wheelman]

"I used BD for years when it was Hercules ." So did I, still have 2# left... Got my best accuracy closest to max loads. Guess when that's gone, I'm done.

This was a very important thread...

 

[rwsmith]

You don't say......

I used BD for years when it was Hercules . During the powder shortage I found a 4# keg of Alliant BD. Worst powder ever. All kinds of pressure spikes. Even with start loads flat primers, sticky extraction, pierced primers. Called Alliant and they told me they had a "hot batch" of BD according to the product code . Told me to quit using it and sent me 4# of Unique. I don't think this powder likes air space. In a shotgun or even small cartridges like 9mm ,40 etc. where charges are small and compressed does it work ok. I would avoid BD anymore.

4# of Unique??? GEE!

I wonder if I have any Alliant powder I can complain about??

 

[BC38]

I've never loaded 357 with BD, but I shot a few rounds of 44 mag a trusted buddy loaded near the top of the recommended range. 13.5 gr under a 240 gr lead RNFP.

WOW! Talk about hot rounds! 1500 FPS +/- ~ 50 fps. One even split the brass! No harm to the gun, but I stopped shooting them in my handguns right then and there - they're reserved for rifle use only.

Just for grins, I pulled a few of them down and they all weighed right on the money. No surprise there since he hand-weighs when loading at the top of the range. IIRC there wasn't enough room for any double charges or anything like that anyway. While I wouldn't trust just anyone's reloads, I do trust this guy - probably more than I trust myself, since he's been reloading 44 for WAY longer than I have - probably 20 years or so. He even casts his own bullets (though these rounds were loaded with commercial bullets).

The one thing I've figured out is that I don't particularly want to use buy or use any BD myself. This thread just confirms that feeling.

 

[muddocktor]

Oh, I still have a few pounds of BD and I still use it occasionally in 357 and 44. But there are powders out there that will do at least as good as BD and meter better in my powder measures. I've even loaded it in 9MM and it actually does very well in the 9's and it's also impossible to overcharge a case to where it's dangerous to shoot in 9MM. There just isn't enough case volume in a Luger case to do so.

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have used Blue Dot in lead and steel shotgun loads. With a 2 3/4" Federal Gold medal hull I was able to get a HUGE 1 1/2 oz. lead #2 pellet payload up to a 4 Dram 1330fps in a Browning Auto Five semi auto shotgun. This load in a Over and Under at the trap rage was BRUTAL !!
Just that it did not do well when the temperature dropped below 32 degrees in the duck blind. FPS dropped off.

Never used it in the 9mm due to a full case and low fps in my 3 and 3.5" barrels and Unique doing a better job reaching factory fps loadings and +P in a few.

It was ok with my 6" 38 and 357 loads over the years but it was at its best for a full load with the 158 lead bullet in the J frame snub nose, that matched the FBI load with ease.
Being a "Fair weather shooter" I never had any problems with any of my "Metallic" loads shooting in the field or at targets.

Down to about one cup full and then I will go with my 2400 when it runs dry. Still a fun time over the years.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

All kinds of pressure spikes. Even with start loads flat primers, sticky extraction, pierced primers. Called Alliant and they told me they had a "hot batch" of BD according to the product code . Told me to quit using it and sent me 4# of Unique.

Any idea why they didn't list this issue in their Safety Notice section? Seems that would warrant a product recall?

.

 

[arjay]

Any idea why they didn't list this issue in their Safety Notice section? Seems that would warrant a product recall?



.

Hard to say,there were problems back in the 80s too.Maybe they couldn't get them to repeat with any consistency?
I've got 3/4 of a lb that's been sitting on the shelf for 30 years [emoji57]
So many powders available why fool with the stuff?

 

[Nevada Ed]

My chat with the Alliant tech's all came down to............

with the 125gr JHP test in below 32 degree temperatures in
their lab session......

they logged very unstable fps data and decided to scrap Blue Dot as a safe High velocity powder in the 357 magnum, with the 125gr bullet, for this reason.

As I mentioned, with a 12 Ga. loading in cold weather, fps was affected but due to just 10,000 psi was involved, no red flags were issued with these loadings. However the company did come out with a statement that their "New" Steel Powder was better in cold weather shooting. ( Hint )

 

[elpac3]

Used to load blue dot for the .357 a number of years ago. Blue dot loads were always hot and produced a sharp recoil.

The issue I have had with the dot powders is they do not meter well and I have found I need to weigh every charge or they will "wander" all over the place. When working with a powder like blue dot I would not want that to happen.

If the cases are coming out tight and the primers are flat you are seeing pressure. Different powders can drive a bullet to the same velocity but with different pressures. I have since gone back to Unique for my moderate loads and 2400 for the full charge loads.