357 Magnum & H110 low velocity

[Dieseltech56]

You may have a slow barrel, there's definitely documented cases of a longer barrel shooting slower than a shorter one side by side. Also 4" is probably the bare minimum to make use of a true magnum load in a 357 mag.

Other powders to try would be Accurate #9 which has speers top velocity in a short barrel 357 mag load, and also Alliant 2400.

 

[rockquarry]

I had a Chrony about fifteen or more years ago. I nicked it once with a bullet and Chrony repaired or replaced it. The window that you were required to shoot through was very small, though adequate if you're not going to do much chronographing and you only use it infrequently. It's a light duty unit; for continuous work, this was not the machine to have. I eventually threw it away and went back to the Oehler 35P that I've had for thirty years.

 

[460harry]

You may have a slow barrel, there's definitely documented cases of a longer barrel shooting slower than a shorter one side by side. Also 4" is probably the bare minimum to make use of a true magnum load in a 357 mag.

Other powders to try would be Accurate #9 which has speers top velocity in a short barrel 357 mag load, and also Alliant 2400.

Thanks, I'll try the 2400. Hopefully someone, somewhere near me has it in stock.

 

[fredj338]

Lee's load data. I was puzzled because some guys on youtube post pretty high 4 inch velocities with h110 with 125 grain bullets, above 1,600 fps.

But yeah, book velicities are BS, even when adjusted for barrel length. Lee said 9.3 in the 357 Sig would get me 1,429, but it blew past above 1,500.

Dont believe everything on boobtube. Though there are fast & slow revos. I had a Ruger SS, 2 3/4 that was as fast as most 4" guns. I doubt though that you can get 1600fps safely.

 

[Rogeronimo]

I don't believe the fireball is wasted anything. I don't know how we could harness that fireball and make use of it. I don't think that fireball means we have wasted anything.

That fireball means that the powder was still doing its job all throughout the process. Not unlike flames out of a funny car all the way down the stretch. Want less flame, you live with less velocity. You want efficiency, don't run top fuel.

 

[Fishinfool]

I like 296 / H110 in the .44 magnums for maximum velocity, but back when I loaded a lot of .357, I found the slightly faster 2400 seemed to work better. 15.5 grains of 2400 was good for 1200 fps or more out of 4 inch guns with a 158 grain jacketed, with less of a blast and great accuracy. Speer #10 manual recommends between 13.9 and 15.9, for reference.

Like others have said, there are slow guns, and there are fast guns of the same barrel length, and with the same load. And a good, solid crimp does make a difference in velocity.

Back before my chronograph died, I checked a lot of different factory loads in a variety of calibers and guns, and not many ever reached advertised velocity. Once in a while one would, or even slightly exceed published speeds, but not very often.

Larry

 

[stansdds]

What has been stated about fast barrels and slow barrels is absolutely true. That Dan Wesson 15-2 that I used to work up H110 loads was my first revolver. I had an 8 inch and a 6 inch barrel for it. Of course, the 8 inch barrel provided the highest velocities, but then I bought one of those newfangled (at the time) Ruger GP-100's with a 6 inch barrel. I was surprised to find that the velocity for several loads in that GP-100 exceeded those from the 6 inch DW barrel and were darned close to what I was getting with the 8 inch DW barrel. Given that the Ruger was stainless, just about as accurate as and provided ballistics that equaled or exceeded what I was getting with the Dan Wesson, I parted company with the Dan Wesson.

By the way, many years later I acquired another Dan Wesson 15-2 and I have no intention of parting with it. There is just something about that blued carbon steel, phenomenal SA trigger, and user changeable barrels that draws me to them.

 

[gwpercle]

H110 , 357 magnum , 4 inch barrel is not the best combo ...
H110 is on the slow burning side for the 4 inch barrel length.

But if H110 is all you have ... magnum primer and heavy crimp and do the best you can ... a few FPS faster or slower , is in my mind, not as important as accuracy .
An accurate load beats a faster load Seven Ways to Sunday .
After this shortage thing ... try some Accurate Arms Powders like #7 and #9 in those magnum loads with 4 inch barrel ...they may be better suited .
Gary

 

[fredj338]

I'll disagree vehemently or we could argue specific terms.

Chronos mess up often, far more often chrono users have no idea how much affect the little things they do can goof with the numbers their chrono spits back at them. If you want the chrono to work best, you have to be EXTREMELY consistent with how you hold the firearm, where you send the bullets and how the chrono is placed, and how the light is hitting it.

Aside from the unit itself and how you use it, many handloaders believe THIS bullet and THIS powder at THIS charge weight are the only variables and that's miles from the truth. Differences in cartridge cases, differences in the crimp applied, difference in the ambient temperature that day and a massive difference when two different guns of the same caliber are sending this ammo over the chrono and... the biggest... and where the most folks fail fail fail... is sample size.

Guys load up six shots, fling them over the chrono and come to conclusions and that whole affair should be clearly labeled "amateur conclusions of very little value." A lot of what folks get worked up over would be critically defined as "statistically irrelevant."

Chronographs have a definite value, and way too many handloaders (especially when discussing them in forums) assign far too much value in them. So many folks tell people to get them, even hint that they are a "must own." And for most handloaders, they are nothing more than a toy that ends up opening infinitely more questions than answers.

These are my opinions of course.

So I guess I need to explain. I good, properly set up Chrono doesnt lie. Without a chrono you have no idea what your ammo is actually doing. When working with components not in the book, they are invaluable. Again, you have to understand the data, but to say its a toy, not for the learned, no, a useful tool.

 

[M29since14]

It's off topic, but I would feel deprived without a chronograph. That doesn't mean everyone needs one, but I get a lot of use from mine.

 

[DeplorabusUnum]

Another vote for trying A2400 in your pistol

I pretty much reserve H110 for my Henry 357 rifle with 20 inch barrel. Very consistent velocities and very, very accurate. 1700 fps at near max load. Shooting my 66 with hot H110 loads is unpleasant. Reducing the load of H110 to reduce kick doesn't result in good accuracy for me.

A2400 loads are more pleasant to shoot in my 66 and 629, and also give consistent results with good accuracy. YMMV of course.

 

[ggibson511960]

SD Calculation

Yes! Yes! Yes! If you take a LARGE sample size and if you have four decades behind a chrono and you have experience using them, I totally agree!

I have a Chrony Beta Master. Lots of us call is the Master Beta, heh. I also call it "the fun sucker."

Chrony does well: clocking loads

Chrony does not well: interface. Power of a 1985 super computer but wholly controlled with only three click buttons.

Chrony does TRAIN WRECK AWFUL: here is a device that can do extreme college level math (standard deviation, not simple addition here) and it limits you to a 10-shot string.

10 shots! Have you got a potentially great load, and a low SD interests you? Well here is the CHRONY, where 10 shots is the limit of it's ability.

If I had a load that looked good, I'd want 30 or 50 shots. Sample size! But if you have a CHRONY, sorry bout your luck.

Sorry for mathematical topic drift from H110, but why not simply calculate SD if the chronograph won't handle a large sample size. Write down every velocity, add them up, and divide by the number of shots to find the average (mean) velocity. Subtract mean velocity from from the velocity of each shot and square the difference. Add up all the squared differences and extract the square root of the sum. Perhaps a bit tedious, but you can use whatever sample size you want. Totally agree that SD is the variable to be heeded, and a large sample size indicates a more accurate SD, but how accurate does SD need to be to indicate a consistent load? An ammunition company might say it's hundreds or thousands of rounds. Amateur handload developer banging rounds at today's prices? Maybe not so much. Probability and statistics are on your side after 10 rounds. A hot barrel might start to distort the SD.

Question for chronograph owners: How does a chronograph fail? Somewhere in its innards there is an oscillator, probably digital that is accurate and stable beyond our needs. So what goes wrong? The sensors? It appears to me that if the chronograph captures two bullet passages and is able to compute a time difference from oscillator events, it should either be exactly right or a gross, total failure.

 

[cowboy4evr]

Well I guess I'm the guy thats different here . Because I have shot more H-110 / W296 out of my 357's , 4 " barrel than any other length barrel . I have always used it when shooting my 180 gr cast bullet . I use the max load ( current load data ) . For years I shot those in my K-frame 357 , 4 " barrel . It's still as tight today as the day I bought it . Regards Paul

 

[460harry]

H110 , 357 magnum , 4 inch barrel is not the best combo ...
H110 is on the slow burning side for the 4 inch barrel length.

But if H110 is all you have ... magnum primer and heavy crimp and do the best you can ... a few FPS faster or slower , is in my mind, not as important as accuracy .
An accurate load beats a faster load Seven Ways to Sunday .
After this shortage thing ... try some Accurate Arms Powders like #7 and #9 in those magnum loads with 4 inch barrel ...they may be better suited .
Gary

I dumped H110 and made some Hodgdon Longshot loads today with 357 Magnum. Huge improvement over h110. 8.5 grains of longshot with a 180 grain xtp using a small pistol magnum primer, and I averaged 1,161 fps across 5 shots. Between this and 357 Sig, I feel like Longshot is the perfect small pistol magnum powder for short barrel guns.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Uh, Hodgdons published MAX with an 180gr Nosler Partition and Longshot is 7.2 gr @ 1,167 out of a 10" barrel... Pressure shown as 41,700 CUP.

Something here doesn't make sense to me as I can't believe there is THAT MUCH difference between that Nosler and a 180 gr XTP...?

Unless...?

 

[rwsmith]

Has it been mentioned here?

The muzzle blast from the .357 may be interfering with the Chrono. If it is try moving the chrono away from the muzzle a few more feet.

 

[fredj338]

Sorry for mathematical topic drift from H110, but why not simply calculate SD if the chronograph won't handle a large sample size. Write down every velocity, add them up, and divide by the number of shots to find the average (mean) velocity. Subtract mean velocity from from the velocity of each shot and square the difference. Add up all the squared differences and extract the square root of the sum. Perhaps a bit tedious, but you can use whatever sample size you want. Totally agree that SD is the variable to be heeded, and a large sample size indicates a more accurate SD, but how accurate does SD need to be to indicate a consistent load? An ammunition company might say it's hundreds or thousands of rounds. Amateur handload developer banging rounds at today's prices? Maybe not so much. Probability and statistics are on your side after 10 rounds. A hot barrel might start to distort the SD.

Question for chronograph owners: How does a chronograph fail? Somewhere in its innards there is an oscillator, probably digital that is accurate and stable beyond our needs. So what goes wrong? The sensors? It appears to me that if the chronograph captures two bullet passages and is able to compute a time difference from oscillator events, it should either be exactly right or a gross, total failure.

The so called failure is at the screens. Set them up properly in good light, good screens, they just work.

 

[fredj338]

Uh, Hodgdons published MAX with an 180gr Nosler Partition and Longshot is 7.2 gr @ 1,167 out of a 10" barrel... Pressure shown as 41,700 CUP.

Something here doesn't make sense to me as I can't believe there is THAT MUCH difference between that Nosler and a 180 gr XTP...?

Unless...?

Test platforms. I have 5 diff 4" 357mags. With identical loads vel variation can be 125fps from slowest to fastest. Revos just have great variables.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Rule #1 for reloaders.................

Loading manuals speak with "Forked tongue" !!

No two a like weapons will have the same fps.

Numbers don't lie....................
yes your loads are lower than what the Ammo makers state.

Gee, what a surprise.

Enjoy the new chrony.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

It wasn't necessarily the chronographed performance (only) I was referring to...

fredj338's 8.5 gr Longshot vs. Hodgdons 7.2 MAX ?

Cheers?