.357 Magnums in a Model 19?

[G-Mann]

It seems as though there has been a lot of mixed information on whether or not .357 magnums can be shot from a model 19. The latest I got was that you can indeed, use magnum loads in a K frame all you want, as long as they are at least a 150gr. bullet.

It was explained to me that a lighter bullet would be trouble, in as the hot gases passing by the shorter bullet causing the top strap to be flame cut faster but more importantly, hot gases reaching the forcing cone and eroding it and super heating it to the point of weakening the metal and cracking it.

The same person at the range where I practice at said that the 19's frame was made of heat treated metal and that I should not worry about the physical ballistics from the .357 as well.

What do you guy's think on this subject?

 

[Vulcan Bob]

There have been many case's of split forceing cone's at the six Oclock position. If you take a look at the rear of your M-19 barrel you will see it is cut flat at the bottom, this is where they will split. This is a design problem not a steel problem, and why the 19 was discontinued and the L-frame was developed to replace it. The common thought on this is that it was 125gr magnum load's that did it, the 125gr bullet is too short to seal the cylinder/barrel gap long enough to prevent gas damage to the rear of the forceing cone. This seemed to happen only after a lot of 125gr mag ammo was shot. Would I shoot 125gr mag's out of my 19, yes, but only now and then and not a steady diet of them.

 

[riversalmon]

magnums in a 19?

It has been my experience that a steady diet of magnums 125 or 158, puts as much strain on the shooter as the handgun.This is especially true in the snub barrel configurations. I've always enjoyed 38spl as the regular fare and 357 as the go to when.

 

[Sgt 127]

Lets say your cars top speed is 125 MPH. Now, how long will your car last if you drive it 125 MPH everywhere you go?

Same with a K frame and full throttle .357 Magnums. It will do it, likely for a pretty long time, but, you will be accelerating the wear and tear on it. I personally think the 125 grain rounds out now are not nearly as hot as they were back in the late 70's early 80's.

The only cracked forcing cones I have ever seen were in a couple police turn in 66's my gun shop had. I have never managed to do it. And, I shot some stupid hot loads in K frames.

 

[ab4ka]

I'll shoot magnum rounds in my model 19 on occasion, but generally I stick with .38 special in it and keep the magnums in my 686.

 

[shil]

What seems like eons ago, I split the forcing cone of a 6" Model 19 at 6 o'clock. The gun was brand new, the load was factory Winchester .357 Magnum 125gr JHP, and the round count was 200-225. I sent it back to the factory through my favorite dealer at the time with direction to replace with a 4" barrel. I had a 4" 19 previously and I foolishly traded it off. I missed that gun. The cost of replacement? Nothing. I now shoot the revolver only occasionally, using 158gr magnum ammunition, some of my remaining stash of 145gr Silvertip, or midrange cast lead loads in .357 cases. So far, no troubles. I save earsplitter loads for my 686. I do treasure the 19, though. It's a really nice package.

 

[v0cal]

I just purchased a 4" Model 19-3 (SN 9K9xxxx) this week, what a wonderful piece of work! I love the trigger; my wife says I've done more dry fire practice in the last few days than in the last few months. We'll be using this as an 'intro gun' for new shooter friends using cowboy loads, with the option to show them more authoritative options. We did replace the target grips (keeping them) with the Hogue rubber ones - wife's hand is not large enough for the target grips.

Thanks for the advice on the 357 loads; we'll stay with occasional use of the 158s.

 

[roaddog28]

Quote: The 125 grain bullets driven to maximum velocities used large charges of relatively slow-burning powders. Handloaders know the powder types as WW296 and H-110, among others. The combination of slow ball-type powders and the short bearing surface of the 125 bullets allows prolonged gas cutting of the forcing cone and top strap area, accelerating erosion and wear.

Borescope studies of rifle, machine gun, and auto cannon chamber throats shows a lizzard-skin-like texture due to this gas cutting damage, called "brinelling". The results of brinelling are fine microcracks that weaken the surface of the steel, and further promote erosion. In machine guns and auto cannons, barrel life is measured in terms of "useable accuracy", and round counts that determine this are based on group sizes at engagement ranges.

In the K-frame magnums, the forcing cone dimensions combined with the barrel shank dimensions results in a relatively thin shank at the 6 o'clock position, where a machine cut is made to clear the crane. This is usually where the forcing cone cracks. The L and N frames use much beefier barrel shanks and do not have this cut. S&W intended the K frame magnums to be "carried much and fired seldom" service arms, designed to fire .38 Specials indefinitely, with light to moderate use of .357 Magnums. You notice that S&W has discontinued production of K frame .357 magnums, no doubt due to product liability issues and a couple generations of K frame magnum experience. Quote:

I think the quote above is a good recomendation for the K frame magnum. I have three of them and limited my magnums to 158gr.

I have heavier frame revolvers for shooting 357s all the time.
Howard

 

[Armyphotog]

I love my K-Frames. I shot maybe 3 boxes of .357's through my first one when it was new when nobody ever heard that you couldn't shoot .357's through a gun with it clearly stamped on the barrel. Some of that was armor- piercing that they used to sell the highway patrol for motor blocks. But, thanks to being a poor boy I mostly shot .38's since they were cheaper. So, see! Being poor has it's good points!

 

[daa9mm]

Geez, if you are afraid to shoot factory shells in a gun marked for it, then you've wasted your money buying it.

 

[Mule88]

If they quit making .357 in K-frames why are they still making the .357 in J- frames...HHmmmmmmm

 

[18DAI]

They kept making those "weak" K-frames right alongside the L-frames for twenty some odd years too.

Some of us have fired thousands of rounds of 357 through model 19's and 66's. We've not yet experienced a problem. Not even shot one loose.

Maybe using 158 grain 357's and keeping the guns clean has something to do with that. YMMV. Regards 18DAI.

 

[WVfishguy]

Geez, if you are afraid to shoot factory shells in a gun marked for it, then you've wasted your money buying it.

Young and/or new guy. No offense meant, but old S&W guys know all about this. No K-frame is a waste of money.
My wife loves her 19-3:

You'll find a lot of writing on this subject; the guys here have posted great info. K-frame Model 19s were designed to practice with .38s, and shoot .357s for serious social work. Etc.
Before the K-frames, police officers had to lug around the N-frame guns, great revolvers but huge and heavy for all-day carry. K-frames handle faster as well.
K-frames are great guns, especially if you load your own ammo. I load a 158 grain .357 JHP at about 1200 fps for carry. That's plenty of power, and won't tear up the gun.

 

[amd6547]

My question-
In my reading on the subject of 357mags in the Model 19, I seen the opinion stated that this is less of an issue with the Model 66.
Is this true?

 

[Srigs]

I shoot 158 grain 357 ammo through my 66 all the time and shoot lots of 38 also. I leave the 125 grain Gold Dots for carry ammo.

 

[WVfishguy]

My question-
In my reading on the subject of 357mags in the Model 19, I seen the opinion stated that this is less of an issue with the Model 66.
Is this true?

The 66 is simply a stainless 19.
Now, I'm no metallurgist, but it's my understanding stainless is slightly softer because of the fewer hydrogen carbons on the surface metal, so any wear issues should hold true with a M66.
HOWEVER - I don't remember a post about forcing cone problems with Model 66s, and I know it was an incredibly popular gun (but when you drink as much as I do, there's a LOT of things you don't remember).
In fact, the 66 was the very first Smith & Wesson I shot, more than 30 years ago.
I'd love to see a metallurgist or two chime in here....

 

[gatekeeper]

My model 19 is a great shooter and I have never had s problem with magnum loads. It would be a bit loud in the hallway at night so I opt for .38 +P as an alternative.

 

[18DAI]

I've posted here several times over the years, asking if anyone had ever seen a cracked forcing cone on a 66, and had no takers. Then last year or so, one gentleman here posted pics of his 66 with a crack in the six o'clock position.

I've read posts from one member here, recently, who says he saw "several" 66's with cracked forcing cones at his agency. No pics or further details there. IIRC Mas Ayoob saw some with his agency as well back in the late 70's.

FWIW back some years ago, my partner and I were at the S&W academy. An instructor there opined to us that "the 66's were extremely tough - tougher than the 19's", and claimed the steel used in the early production examples wore tool bits at an alarming rate.

Over the years I've come across a few 66's that were shot loose. They exhibited endshake to varying degrees and were easily repaired with shims.

I've only ever seen one cracked K-frame magnum forcing cone in person, and it was on a 19. One cracked forcing cone in 39 years of K-frame magnum useage and owning/being issued countless model 19's and 66's. Guess all mine are/have been, exceptional examples. Regards 18DAI.

 

[Lt JL]

I carried a 19-3 2 1/2 inch off duty for years. I put thousands of rounds of 158 gr LHBSWC .357s through it, with no sign of flame cutting or other damage. I think K-frames shoot closest to POA/POI with 158s, too. Had this gun hard chromed after the blue wore off from carry.

 

[JC4013]

I had a six inch, four inch and two and a half inch Model 19s for duty work and fired thousands of magnum rounds, mostly 158 grain for practice because that's what the department provided, then 125 grain fror duty. I never had a problem, even though I probably fired a couple thousand 125 grain bullets. It can be a problem and we all carefully checked the cones to make sure there weren't any problems. I did know some guys who had slit cones, but they shot even more than I did. If you're not going to shoot a lot of lighter magnums, I wouldn't worry about it, but I still check any firearm over carefully when I clean it, just as a matter of habit. Any mechanical tool can and will fail eventually. The most common problefm I saw were bent cranes from guys that would flip the revolver so the cylinder would shut without being closed manually, just like they used to do in the old gangster movies. That'll mess it up very nicely.