.357mag 147grain loads with w231

[rfd]

with regards to these no-groove bullet "slicks", 11.1 grains of A2400 under the taper crimped Precision 147 grain hi-tek worked fine at the police range last night in the Ruger 6.5" NMBH. no bullet jump, no leading and accuracy was good enuf for me @ 10 to 25 yards. life is still good.

 

[Nevada Ed]

11 gr of A2400 should be around 998fps at 17 CUP for a starting load
per my Lyman data........
but the bullet used did have a cannelure .

True, with good dies and case tension, good loads can be loaded for light target loads, with "Smooth bullets".

I have done it but I also have had problems when the loads got into the 1200fps area. Just a heads up.

If by chance you have some Trail Boss or Bullseye you might try
a few loads in a 38 snub nose, if you have one.
550fps worked well for me.

 

[rfd]

I'm far more of a BPCR PPB guy than handguns, and all i cast are 16:1 525 grain slicks for wrapping. well, either that or .600 or .530 lead balls for flintlock long guns.

I have, and have used both trail boss and BE, as well as unique. I think i'll stick with w231/125gr for the mild loads and A2400/147gr for the medium loads. The blackhawk's weight really helps and i have no problem with one-handing those stiffer loads.

I just loaded up some .38's with 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 grains of w231 under a 125 grain hi-tec slick for a soon-to-arrive smith 642c airweight. curious to see/feel the recoil with that 15oz peashooter.

 

[mikld]

One would be foolish to load those "cowboy" bullets in a tubular magazine rifle...

Perhaps the manufacture's advertising feller called them, mistakenly, "cowboy bullets" but anyone with any experience reloading for revolvers and pistols will see that they are designed for 9mm pistols...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

I'm far more of a BPCR PPB guy than handguns, and all i cast are 16:1 525 grain slicks for wrapping. well, either that or .600 or .530 lead balls for flintlock long guns.

I have, and have used both trail boss and BE, as well as unique. I think i'll stick with w231/125gr for the mild loads and A2400/147gr for the medium loads. The blackhawk's weight really helps and i have no problem with one-handing those stiffer loads.

I just loaded up some .38's with 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 grains of w231 under a 125 grain hi-tec slick for a soon-to-arrive smith 642c airweight. curious to see/feel the recoil with that 15oz peashooter.

4.5 gr of WIN231 would be within Hodgdon's range for either a 125gr LRNFP or a 158gr LCSWC.

I believe what people were warning you about was either creep or possible setback: "slick", smooth (coated) bullets with no cannalure can cause problems at "true" 357 Magnum (or 357 SIG!) velocities. Hence my initial question way back in this thread, BTW.

I have shot 1,000's of 125gr plated FP Xtremes at 38 Special and +P and in LOWER 357 Magnum velocities (1200 fps) using many different powders and a taper crimp (actually the LEE FCD) with no problems. They were my range choice for years.

I believe people were just trying to make you aware of the possible implications : "cowboy-style" bullets are not truly designed for the higher velocities. Speer makes a bonded, jacketed 135gr Gold Dot they use in their ammo designed for short barrels that might be the exact cup-o-tea for that Airweight you have coming?

Cheers!

 

[rfd]

I believe what people were warning you about was either creep or possible setback: "slick", smooth (coated) bullets with no cannalure can cause problems at "true" 357 Magnum (or 357 SIG!) velocities. Hence my initial question way back in this thread, BTW.

FWIW, I was cautious enuf to take calipers to last night's range session and after loading el pistolo with all six a2400 rounds, cartridge numero seis had no bullet setback after it's compadres all departed el cylindero. i fired off 20 of 'em and did the 6th round check on all. no issues with the fired brass/primers, no leading, accuracy was better than me.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

Perhaps the manufacture's advertising feller called them, mistakenly, "cowboy bullets" but anyone with any experience reloading for revolvers and pistols will see that they are designed for 9mm pistols...

hmm, i'd suggest that before making assumptions you'd be best to have called Precision Bullets for their take on what they offer, and who's using 'em with no issues. they've made and sold millions of their hi-teks and either they'd be stupid for making/labelling a product incorrectly, or be out of business due to their negligence. as it was, i made the call yesterday afternoon, spoke with the owner/operator, and got the real scoop.

 

[mikld]

hmm, i'd suggest that before making assumptions you'd be best to have called Precision Bullets for their take on what they offer, and who's using 'em with no issues. they've made and sold millions of their hi-teks and either they'd be stupid for making/labelling a product incorrectly, or be out of business due to their negligence. as it was, i made the call yesterday afternoon, spoke with the owner/operator, and got the real scoop.

I started reloading revolver ammo in summer of '69. I have 7 revolvers that I reload for, jacketed, lead, PCed and Hi-Tek. I have purchased a few thousand "black bullets" from Precision, and I have never, nope never seen a revolver bullet sans crimp groove or cannalure. I would also hazard to say I don't remember ever seeing a bullet designed for a semi-auto that had a cannalure or crimp groove. If the bullet designer made up the ad copy stated the smooth sided, no groove/cannalure was designed for "cowboy" revolver shooting I might take that into consideration, but even "new and improved" bullet design is still the same old stuff; cannalure/crimp groove for revolver bullets, smooth sided, no groove bullets for semi-auto use.

But (un)fortunately I pay little attention to "forum wisdom" as anybody can post something, swear it's the true facts, and be just whistling Dixie. Yep I talked to Keith yesterday and he verified my findings...

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Uh, the 140gr hi-tech coated 10mm/40 S&W bullets from the Missouri Bullet Company are definitely for a semi-auto and have a cannelure/crimp groove...

They can't be the only ones?

Cheers!

 

[muddocktor]

My main problem with that bullet design is not whether it was originally designed for a semi auto or revolver, but rather the lack of a crimp groove. And even then, I wouldn't have a problem running them in a revolver except maybe one of the ultra light scandium guns because of crimp jump. But I would never run them in my Rossi carbine because of the lack of a crimp groove to physically lock the bullet to the case until ignition. There is just too much chance for recoil to push the bullet well into the case with the tubular mag spring already putting everything under load already.

@ STORMINORMAN, I have loaded quite a few of those MBC 140 grain Zingers and they perform real well and feed great in my Rossi. I've chronoed them at over 1900 ft/sec out of the Rossi with no signs of leading. But if you look at the Zinger, it has a definite crimp groove plus a lube groove, which is different from the Precision bullet the OP linked to.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Yep! & WOW!

My main problem with that bullet design is not whether it was originally designed for a semi auto or revolver, but rather the lack of a crimp groove. And even then, I wouldn't have a problem running them in a revolver except maybe one of the ultra light scandium guns because of crimp jump. But I would never run them in my Rossi carbine because of the lack of a crimp groove to physically lock the bullet to the case until ignition. There is just too much chance for recoil to push the bullet well into the case with the tubular mag spring already putting everything under load already.

@ STORMINORMAN, I have loaded quite a few of those MBC 140 grain Zingers and they perform real well and feed great in my Rossi. I've chronoed them at over 1900 ft/sec out of the Rossi with no signs of leading. But if you look at the Zinger, it has a definite crimp groove plus a lube groove, which is different from the Precision bullet the OP linked to.

I was unaware Rossi even made a long gun in 40 S&W! 1900 fps is nothing to sneeze at! I would have thought one of the Buffalo Bore (Standard Pressure) loads out of my Sub 2000 would be about as far as you could push a 40 S&W...?

Wow!

 

[MJFlores]

231 is the same as HP-38. Try 6 grains of either under a 158 grain bullet. One of my favorite range loads.

 

[muddocktor]

I was unaware Rossi even made a long gun in 40 S&W! 1900 fps is nothing to sneeze at! I would have thought one of the Buffalo Bore (Standard Pressure) loads out of my Sub 2000 would be about as far as you could push a 40 S&W...?

Wow!

My bad, the Zingers are 357 caliber. They are the same basic shape as the .40 MBC bullet, but a little longer and have a crimp groove. I don't think you will ever see a carbine with a tubular mag made for a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth. Tubular mags need a roll crimped cartridge design to keep setback from recoil or spring tension. But the Hi Tek coating and hard cast bullets cope very well with higher velocities in my experience.

 

[tommy F]

With 38 brass 140-160 lead Bullets with 3.5 W231 yield 700-750 and 5.0 gets 900-950 (+P)in multiple SW 4-6" revolvers. Hornady revolver Bullets do not have crimp groves. Just Medium roll crimp into bullet and test in your guns. Very simple process

 

[Nevada Ed]

c/o post #31; "....6 grs of powder "

Note;
this is data for the 357 Magnum !!


since weapon was not mentioned.

 

[STORMINORMAN]

Well, I sorta' knew...

My bad, the Zingers are 357 caliber. They are the same basic shape as the .40 MBC bullet, but a little longer and have a crimp groove. I don't think you will ever see a carbine with a tubular mag made for a cartridge that headspaces on the case mouth. Tubular mags need a roll crimped cartridge design to keep setback from recoil or spring tension. But the Hi Tek coating and hard cast bullets cope very well with higher velocities in my experience.

...that 1,900 fps was REALLY pushing the envelope for any 40 S&W. No harm, no foul!

Didn't want to create any peripheral controversy or contention with my post earlier contesting the "no bullets for semi-automatics with a crimp groove or callelure" post.

I, too, have loaded the 38/357 Mag Zingers, but not even close to the velocities you mentioned: how much of that do you feel is due to the additional barrel length? Hodgdons shows 1,700+ with a 140gr XTP using a MAX load of H110 from a 10" barrel: that's gotta' be very HOT!

Cheers!