38/44 vs. 357 Magnum

As far as I understand, the .357 came about because people were loading .38hv in small frame .38 Spc, and for liability reasons, S&W decided to add the length so they would be unable to chamber in a standard .38. I understand that the .357 was developed in an Outdoorsman, and the loads were essentially to mimic or edge slightly the existing .38-44HV load, however from what I have read (being born in 1981, I for some reason have no firsthand experience with original .38-44 loads) there was not as huge a difference between the .38-44 and the .357 as there was between the .38S and the .357.
In addition, some of the older .38 Spc revolvers had long for caliber cylinders, and could chamber the .357 with no modification. Even today there are a number of "Hillbilly Magnums", where people will bore out a .38Spc to take the .357 length cartridge. Not a good idea, if you particularly attached to your hands.
 
Sage advice from my grandfathers and my father, and any other oldtimer that was at the range when i was a kid : " If it aint stamped on the barrel dont put it in there"
 
The model 27 is heavier, than a 19 or 66, (K frames), yet the K frames have a longer clyinder than the 27. Anyone want to tackle that?
Personaly I think it was partialy a marketing idea. Now I dont know about the heat treating idea, but I really think reaming out a HD clyinder to .357 would be safe as it had been sucessfully done many times they tell me. Now days, it would be dumb though, from a collector/money standpoint.
 
Senecap,
When S&W decided that they needed a round and handgun that would pentrate bad guys with bullet proof vests and armored vehicles, they looked at the 38 SPL which had basically been loaded with the same amount of smokeless powder as blackpowder. The heavy loads they used from Elmer Keith apparently blew up K frame M&P guns so they looked at the 3d model .44 and figured that if you bored that big cylinder with .38 holes as opposed to .44, you had a lot of steel to take the increased pressure. They added the barrel shroud like the .44 and the 38/44 Heavy Duty was born. The 38-44 ammo was listed at 1150FPS which is probably close to todays factory 357. This ammo was for only the large frame guns. I was fortunate to pick up 3 full boxes of 38-44 ammo at Tulsa this weekend.
Hope this helps,
Bill
 
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One reason the Model 19 and other K frame magnums have a longer cylinder is for strength. Notice how much less of the rear of the barrel is unsupported on the Magnums than on the non-Magnums designed after the original .357. I think S&W's engineers may have been (correctly) concerned about strength in this area when they designed the Combat Magnum. Also, notice that the other Magnums developed by S&W, the .41 and .44, also have less of the rear of the barrel exposed/longer cylinder, even though they are N frame guns.

The S&W counterbored chamber cylinders are actually all longer than the non-counterbored cylinders on the rear of the cylinder, too. The difference is minor, the thickness of the cartridge rims. If you have sequential dash numbers of the same model of S&W, where the second gun doesn't have a recessed chamber cylinder, measure both. The newer one will be shorter. 'The shorter' part is the rear of the cylinder.
 
Steve brought this transitional Outdoorsman to me at Tulsa a couple years ago. It had been converted to .38-44 "Magnum" probably in the 40's !

Jerry

orig.jpg
 
GLL said:
Steve brought this transitional Outdoorsman to me at Tulsa a couple years ago. It had been converted to .38-44 "Magnum" probably in the 40's !

Jerry

orig.jpg
Click to expand...

Sorry I'm a little confused by your description, but what do you mean by "converted to .38-44 magnum"? Are you saying it was modified to take the .357, as the Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman were designed from the get go for the .38-44 High Velocity round, they were simply stamped, though, as .38 S&W Special Ctg. Or is there some modified magnum .38-44 round I haven't run across yet?
 
senecaap:

You missed a quote on the "Magnum". The .38-44 cylinder will not chamber a .357Magnum round unless it is reamed a bit longer. A couple of my own guns were modified by previous owners to accept the .357 cartridge. .38-44 brass and .38 Special brass are identical length and differ only in the head stamp. It is just an example of one of your "Hillbilly Magnums" ! :) :)

Jerry
 
S&W has always made it clear that a special chrome-nickel (their phrasing) steel was used in .357's, and they also had additional heat treatment.

I am rather concerned that this thread may lead some to bore out a .38-44 and regret it. Moreover, they'd ruin a collector's gun. Just buy a .357 or sell the .38-44 to a collector and get one.

Of all places, I'd have thought that this board would be full of members who'd know better than to re-chamber a .38. :rolleyes:

Modern 158 grain .357 JHP ammo often beats 1,200 FPS in a four-inch revolver barrel. I'm almost sure that those 1510 and 1550 FPS loads were obtained in pressure barrels of a bit over eight inches. That probably also applied to 1450 FPS postwar ammo.

Recent .357 ammo is loaded lighter because of K-frame Magnums, not J-frames, which are Johnny-come-latelys in .357.

T-Star
 
laney566 said:
My 38/44 Super Police has more than 1/8 left in the cylinder when loaded...Does this mean if a .357 WILL fit into the cylinder, that it can handle the pressure of the Magnum load?
I am just curious, I have not yet purchased .357 to test this theory, but if a .357 is only 1/8 inch longer than current .38 loads....I think I have the room for it. Everything else about this gun seems modified...I wonder if it was modified to accommodate a .357 load.
Click to expand...

FWIW: You can hand load a 38 special to such a respectable performance level that I wouldn't bother with trying to cram .357 magnum rounds into those 38 chambers.

Also, Elmer Keith published loading data using 2400 as a propellant, and some of those 38 spl loads are near .357 performance. Of course, it's wise to only use a revolver built strong enough to handle hot hand loads.
 
"Conversion"

My understanding is that "in the early days" when 357 magnum revolvers were hard to come by, that there were quite a few 38/44 revolver cylinders that were reamed out to load the 357 magnum cartridge. Some of them were stamped as such on the barrels by their reamers, while others were just reamed with no mark as to the modification. I purchased a Transitional Heavy Duty that had been reamed and stamped "357" on the side of the barrel. However, I do not plan to shoot anything but 38 Specials out of the gun and I would recommend the same to others who own reamed 38/44's. And I cannot see why anyone would incur the cost to ream a 38/44 in this current market, where 357 revolvers of all varieties are plentiful, easy to find and relatively reasonably priced.

In my younger years (not that I am old), I got a thrill out of shooting powerful/punishing loads. However, the older I get, I find that I rarely shoot anything but 38's out of my 357's. I find myself shooting for pleasure and accuracy, not to show myself or others how much punishment that I can handle. Then again, maybe I never was the macho dude that I thought that I was...:rolleyes:
 
Amen, Brother Richard. At 63 and a shooter since single digits, I still touch off a big honker from time to time (such as a Reeder 510 or a 50AE Bowen built for me) but a 44 Special in one of my 44mags or 38 Specials in a 357 is much more my current taste. At my age, it is been there, done that, don't remember. Dave
 
I too, own a post war nickled 38/44 that was reamed out for .357 mag loads. It was so marked with an electric pencile but is in a way that you don't reallly notice it or maybe the nickle was placed over it. It is a renickled gun. I shoot standard 158 gr .38s in it. I love the heavy feel of this old shooter and it shoots to POA. Great guns and I have managed to find a few of these old shooters.
 
This One......

Has been reamed to accept .357 magnum ammo prior to my purchasing it. Actually, many years ago, as it was the thing to do. I paid handsomely for it as it is all numbers matching, but about $400 less than if it had been un-modified. The reason I bought it was because it HAD been modified.
IMG_6824.jpg


To my knowledge there is no different heat treatment between these & the RM's The only ones that got different treatment were the 44 & 41 mags. I got no problem shootin' magnum's outta this one. I wouldn't do it out of a modified m15. The hiilbillies don't realize the m19 has a beefier crane on it.
eek1.gif
 
The cylinders on the post war 38/44's are plenty hard enough (Rockwell Tested), and thick enough to ream to .357 Magnum. Post War 38/44's reamed to .357 are stronger than Pre War Registered Magnums. Which have relatively softer steel.

Emory

Texas Star said:
S&W has always made it clear that a special chrome-nickel (their phrasing) steel was used in .357's, and they also had additional heat treatment.

I am rather concerned that this thread may lead some to bore out a .38-44 and regret it. Moreover, they'd ruin a collector's gun. Just buy a .357 or sell the .38-44 to a collector and get one.

Of all places, I'd have thought that this board would be full of members who'd know better than to re-chamber a .38. :rolleyes:

Modern 158 grain .357 JHP ammo often beats 1,200 FPS in a four-inch revolver barrel. I'm almost sure that those 1510 and 1550 FPS loads were obtained in pressure barrels of a bit over eight inches. That probably also applied to 1450 FPS postwar ammo.

Recent .357 ammo is loaded lighter because of K-frame Magnums, not J-frames, which are Johnny-come-latelys in .357.

T-Star
Click to expand...
 
I feel T-Star's concern is possibly misplaced. All of the .38/44s I own or have seen that were converted were post-war transitional models. My gut feeling is that the conversions took place in the 1940s or early 50s !
Does anyone own a post 1950 .38/44 that has been converted to .357Magnum?
I would certainly doubt members of this Forum would consider doing it now. The guns are simply worth too much "as is" and recent .357 models are relatively "cheap" (inexpensive)!

Jerry
 
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