38 +P Headshots
- Thread starter Robert B
- Start date
Register to hide this ad
Glock 'em down
Member
Two to the chest - one to the head is never a "bad" idea. 
Texas Star
US Veteran
I think the rough part is hitting the head. It's a smaller target and usually in motion. Most of us can't shoot like fictional heroine Modesty Blaise, and are better off trying for center mass hits.
Unless you know a medical examiner or one posts, your best bet is probably to call Speer and ask their experts, who likely get feedback from police users. Alas, I've lost their number, but it should be available Online.
Keep in mind that a head shot might not look as good as a defensive wound to a prosecutor as a body shot. I was cautioned once when qualifying on the range not to go for head shots, as the targets were saved, and if I shot anyone, an investigator might examine them. Shooting for the head might look as if one had a desire to kill. Or, so the rangemaster said. I don't know how valid it is. Probably depends on the investigation.
T-Star
Unless you know a medical examiner or one posts, your best bet is probably to call Speer and ask their experts, who likely get feedback from police users. Alas, I've lost their number, but it should be available Online.
Keep in mind that a head shot might not look as good as a defensive wound to a prosecutor as a body shot. I was cautioned once when qualifying on the range not to go for head shots, as the targets were saved, and if I shot anyone, an investigator might examine them. Shooting for the head might look as if one had a desire to kill. Or, so the rangemaster said. I don't know how valid it is. Probably depends on the investigation.
T-Star
Last edited:
Glock 'em down
Member
Believe it or not, up here in Oklahoma, CLEET is now teaching the head shot in new academies as well as on all annual departmental quals. It could hardly believe it when I heard about it.
I haven't seen their revised COF. Are they introducing the "2 body and then the head" Mozambique or requiring straight head shots, or both?
noah.c.hardy
Member
yes, 38+p will definately enter, and probably exit a human skull. again, as other posters have mentioned, hitting it is the trick.
as far as being prosecuted for it, i would think that if you did everything else properly, ie legitimate self defense, then any defense attorney worth their salt should be able to get you taken care of. this sounds to me like the "too large a caliber defense."
as far as being prosecuted for it, i would think that if you did everything else properly, ie legitimate self defense, then any defense attorney worth their salt should be able to get you taken care of. this sounds to me like the "too large a caliber defense."
Last edited:
And that is going the help the police with their rounds hit vs rounds fired ratio?
Center mass is where you want to put the rounds,
A little high = throat shot
A little low = gut/reprodutive zone
A little left = lung shot
A little right= heart shot
You have four or five inches--maybe more to still get a fatal wound.
When aiming at a head; any shot placed one or two inches high, left or right might not "stop" a bad guy. A shot four inches off will equal miss.
Glock 'em down
Member
Yeah, they're teaching two to the chest - one to the head, from the 7 yard line.
jaysouth
US Veteran
While a rookie in 1969, my field training officer shot a perp in the face. The bullet hit the right tear duct and exited the occuput area. The exit wound was about three inches in diameter.
Round was a 158 lead round nose from a Smith M-10.
Round was a 158 lead round nose from a Smith M-10.
Buzzsaw
Member
Torso first, should end most fights BUT beware body armor, quickly go to head. Whatever it takes to stop the threat.
Nathan Forrest
Member
- Joined
- Oct 1, 2009
- Messages
- 114
- Reaction score
- 11
Go to Walmart and buy a coconut.
flop-shank
US Veteran
People have something called a cranial vault. It's called that for good reason. A friend of mine was shot in the head with an AK-47 while fighting in Vietnam. The bullet entered one side of his helmet, bounced off his skull, hit the top of his helmet on the inside, bounced off his skull on the other side, then stopped sticking out the other side of his helmet. He was knocked out cold. In his first gunfight reknowned NYPD stakeout cop Jim Cirillo shot a perp in the head three times before a bullet hit his skull straight on enough to penetrate his skull. Bullets have a tendency to skip and skid off the skull. The up side of head shots is that hitting the brain will almost always cause an instant stoppage. John Wesley Hardin was a notorious headhunter IIRC.
I don't agree with shooting center mass. Low shots will be gut shots and gut shots, acording to gunfight veteran/cop Keith Jones can even have a galvanizing effect on some people. There is still the hope of hitting the spine, decending aorta, or inferior vena cava (return blood supply from the lower body. Someone who's a medical professional correct me if I'm wrong on any on this stuff. I'm just an over-the-hill grunt). I believe in aiming for the "golden triangle" which is nipples to base of the throat. Shots that are low can hit the base of the heart as well as the lower lungs, liver and spleen. Shots that are high and to the side can hit the subclavian vessels which feed blood to the arms as well as the brachial plexus (the nerves controling the arms). High and center will be neck, or even head shots. Of course, in the center of the golden triangle is most, or all of of the heart/ and a network of massive blood vessels going in and out of the heart/lungs as well as the spine in the back.
Keep in mind that the Pelvis is a great target also, especially if your assailant is armed with a knife or impact weapon. A broken pelvis will drop anyone instantly and if armed with a gun give you an excellent opportunity to disrupt their aim and mobility and put time and possibly cover on your side. Jim Cirrillo's partner, Bill Allard said once in an interview that the guy who lands the first effective shot will usually win the gunfight. If you suspect that the cat is wearing armor, the pelvis may be a better target than the more mobile, smaller and better armored head. Keep in mind that every situation is different and thus dictates which route to take. You'll have to think on your feet.
I don't agree with shooting center mass. Low shots will be gut shots and gut shots, acording to gunfight veteran/cop Keith Jones can even have a galvanizing effect on some people. There is still the hope of hitting the spine, decending aorta, or inferior vena cava (return blood supply from the lower body. Someone who's a medical professional correct me if I'm wrong on any on this stuff. I'm just an over-the-hill grunt). I believe in aiming for the "golden triangle" which is nipples to base of the throat. Shots that are low can hit the base of the heart as well as the lower lungs, liver and spleen. Shots that are high and to the side can hit the subclavian vessels which feed blood to the arms as well as the brachial plexus (the nerves controling the arms). High and center will be neck, or even head shots. Of course, in the center of the golden triangle is most, or all of of the heart/ and a network of massive blood vessels going in and out of the heart/lungs as well as the spine in the back.
Keep in mind that the Pelvis is a great target also, especially if your assailant is armed with a knife or impact weapon. A broken pelvis will drop anyone instantly and if armed with a gun give you an excellent opportunity to disrupt their aim and mobility and put time and possibly cover on your side. Jim Cirrillo's partner, Bill Allard said once in an interview that the guy who lands the first effective shot will usually win the gunfight. If you suspect that the cat is wearing armor, the pelvis may be a better target than the more mobile, smaller and better armored head. Keep in mind that every situation is different and thus dictates which route to take. You'll have to think on your feet.
hogblue
Member
Flopshank has it pretty well covered. Especially the pelvic area. What he said about Jim Cirrillo is true. I've had the pleasure of being in his classes at FLETC and also working along side him there on occasion. Very good man and a wealth of information.
We have done it during firearms qualification for years in Georgia. It started off being called "failure to stop" drill, now the range command is "2 shots center body mass, 1 shot cranial vault." IIRC it only involves 2 shots out of the 30 total for qualification, and I think they are from the 5 yard line.
I understand the point of it, but it is being optimistic to count on being able to land a shot there during all the commotion.
If I was picking a round for head shots, I would want a bullet with a sharp edge to it instead of a rounded ogive. I also would not want a soft bullet, especially soft lead...
The theory being that a sharp edge would be more likely to "take a bite" and not glance off.
The theory being that a sharp edge would be more likely to "take a bite" and not glance off.
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2006
- Messages
- 7,768
- Reaction score
- 7,177
I'm aware of two authenticated cases of rounds skidding off the cranial vault with no penetration. Both resulted in instant stops and concussions, but it's not a result you want to count on. Head shots are a whole lot easier on the range than in the real world, the head being very mobile and well armored.
At least one poster seems real confused about human anatomy. The heart lies center of chest, slightly tilted to the left, IIRC. "Center of mass" means bottom of the sternum. While an arguable choice for iron sight infantry engagements at a distance, it's a real poor choice for upclose and personal.
Primary aiming point should be center of chest, about the 3rd shirt button. If that isn't working pelvis or base of throat is a better choice than head with most handgun cartridges.
At least one poster seems real confused about human anatomy. The heart lies center of chest, slightly tilted to the left, IIRC. "Center of mass" means bottom of the sternum. While an arguable choice for iron sight infantry engagements at a distance, it's a real poor choice for upclose and personal.
Primary aiming point should be center of chest, about the 3rd shirt button. If that isn't working pelvis or base of throat is a better choice than head with most handgun cartridges.
Wow! Been a few years since I heard the name Modesty Blaise! If I remember correctly, Modesty's "technique" was to momentairly "stun" the bad guy, giving her time to take the necessary action to disable him. If such a case developed in the real world the head shot might then be made to a STATIONARY target!
Skip Sackett
US Veteran
Mozambique drill.
2 amidships, one in the cranium.
Found this on YouTube. I could only hope to be this good! Of course, when the target could be shooting back, some of this may go out the window!
YouTube - "Mozambique Drill"
2 amidships, one in the cranium.
Found this on YouTube. I could only hope to be this good! Of course, when the target could be shooting back, some of this may go out the window!
YouTube - "Mozambique Drill"
flop-shank
US Veteran
I wouldn't want to tangle with that cat! 
