38+P in older Airweight J frames.

[Cal44]

I know the general consensus is that it's OK to use a limited number of 38+P rounds in steel J frames -- at least those from the late 50's or newer.

But my question is, what about the Airweights?

The trouble with Airweight J's has been frame cracks.

And so the thinking is, don't strain the frame with 38+P.

But on the other hand I've heard the following:

1. The frame cracks come about because of over tightened barrels during manufacture.

2. Older 38 Special ammo back when these guns were built is as "hot" as current plus p (and plus P didn't exist back then).

So, are we really taking an additional risk using +P in our old 37's, 42's, 38's, etc?

Have the ones "destined" to crack already cracked, or will they crack anyway no matter what ammo is used because of manufacturing issues or errors?

Here I'm talking carrying 38+P for defense with a limited about of practice with +P ammo -- and most practice with std pressure.

I'm curious what Airweight users actually do.

And since every thread needs a picture, here is my M37.

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

Here's my opinion, and my limited observations, and what I actually do. First, I believe statement 1, although I base my belief on no real knowledge. I do not know whether statement 2 is correct or not, but that is not really the issue. SAAMI +P standards are higher pressure than SAAMI non-+P standards. I have had actual experience with a 37 cylinder "backing up" upon firing a certain +P load. That is, it unlocked, and the subsequent trigger pull didn't fire another round. Of course, another would have, I'm sure. So, while I kind of doubt that +P would damage a 37, I have no interest in using +P in my 37s.

Two of my 37s are sighted for 125gr bullets, and I use Federal Nyclad Chief loads (standard pressure) in them. Silvertip 110s also go to POA in these revolvers. My other 37 has unmodified sights, and POA=POI with standard-pressure 158gr ammo.

BTW, I strongly prefer the SB, such as you have, although I add a Tyler.

Great guns.

 

[alwslate]

This question comes up often and despite the "general consensus"
S&W does not approve steel J frames for use with +P except for a few
late production models that are so listed in their ammo-model tables.
As for older alloy J frames the answer from S&W is no +P period. Yet
owners of older lightweight J frames still manage to come up with
some rationale as to why it's really ok to use +P and that despite
what the manufacturer says the guns will handle it. There are lots of
owners that know that their logical thought trumps those confused
factory engineers. You knew the answer before you posted the
question. It's your gun so the decision is yours.

 

[S42N8]

FWIW, +P in an Airweight is probably OK, but why bother? At best, no harm, but with modern ammo, there are many alternatives to +P. I took a M37 to the range this weekend; a box of Critical Defense Lite and a box of Black Hills Cowboy Action was plenty in that gun. The CD shot low, but not badly at the 10yd mark. The heavier bullets shot nicely, and both loads were much more comfortable than even range ammo in my Sig 938. I'd suggest the Cowboy Action ammo and either of the CD loads or either of the Buffalo Bore standard pressure short barrel loads for self-defense...but if you've already decided on +P, so be it.

 

[Old cop]

Here's what I've done for as long as +P has been on the market: My Colt Cobra, Model 37 & Model 38 are all from the '60s. They get a cylinder full each year to confirm POA/POI as well as my familiarity with the recoil. No problems so far.

 

[pigbike]

My 37 cracked shooting Standard 158 RN ammo.

 

[txcp]

I don't think +p does much in a short barrel.I would not shoot'm.


TXCP

 

[Jim Watson]

I am with old cop. A very few for occasional refamiliarization in my Bodyguard Airweight M38.
J frame practice with a 640.
Was 158 gr lead hollowpoint "FBI" now 135 gr Gold Dot "Short Barrel."

 

[redlevel]

There are lots of
owners that know that their logical thought trumps those confused
factory engineers.

I guess I fall in this category.
I carry +p in my airweights.

I have also been known to haul
two tons of peaches in a half-ton
pickup.

 

[wrangler5]

If you believe Buffalo Bore's pressure equipment, their standard pressure 158g SWCHP load exactly equals the velocity of Remington +P with the same weight and style of bullet. That's out of one of my guns, back to back strings over the same chrono setup. (Recoil felt the same, too.) BB's +P load with the same bullet is more potent, both through a chrono and in the hand.

This is supposed to be equivalent to the proverbial "FBI Load" of sainted memory, the last load developed for their revolvers before the agency switched to semiautos. I don't know how BB gets the velocity they do without going into +P pressure territory. (I know I've never been able to do it with any of the powders I've tried over the years.) But I think they're too big to risk getting caught cheating on this point, so I tend to believe their pressure claims.

 

[Cal44]

If you believe Buffalo Bore's pressure equipment, their standard pressure 158g SWCHP load exactly equals the velocity of Remington +P with the same weight and style of bullet. That's out of one of my guns, back to back strings over the same chrono setup. (Recoil felt the same, too.) BB's +P load with the same bullet is more potent, both through a chrono and in the hand.

This is supposed to be equivalent to the proverbial "FBI Load" of sainted memory, the last load developed for their revolvers before the agency switched to semiautos. I don't know how BB gets the velocity they do without going into +P pressure territory. (I know I've never been able to do it with any of the powders I've tried over the years.) But I think they're too big to risk getting caught cheating on this point, so I tend to believe their pressure claims.

Well, BB's pressure claims are probably right, I'm with you on that.

But the Airweight cylinders don't fail due to pressure.

The failure mode is usually cracks in the frame below the forcing cone.

And, the max stress there is likely when the bullet exits the cylinder and enters the forcing cone.

Based on that, since the BB ammo is going as fast as other ammo company's +Ps, it's possible that BB ammo puts as much peak stress on the forcing cone frame area as a "normal" +P.

So is running BB standard pressure any less likely to crack the gun than another vendor's +P?

Don't know the answer -- but usually you don't get something (velocity) for nothing (frame stress).

 

[wrangler5]

This makes perfect sense. Especially your last line. All of us can read published pressure tables, but I'd guess that there are very few (if any) engineers on this forum who can properly evaluate all of the stresses a revolver faces during the firing cycle. In which pressure is only one element.

Personally, I don't use +P in any of my 5-shot 38s except the 640-1, which is heavy enough that my hand and wrist don't get completely hammered by the recoil. Should I ever need to shoot it in earnest, I'm counting on accurate placement of standard velocity 38 Specials to be enough to solve the immediate problem. (And if they're not, I'm dubious that a little bit of extra velocity would make a difference.)

 

[66snub]

My back up gun is a Model 37 no dash, and +P rounds are all I shoot through it. The practice frangible rounds that we use during qualification are loaded to +P pressure and the rounds that I load it with are 125 grain Remington SJHP +P's. Since receiving this gun, I have put probably 500 rounds through it. I am an armorer for my department and I inspect the gun every time I clean it (OCD). I haven't found any cracking or issues with it yet. Not to say that it can't/won't happen, but the old girl keeps chugging along.

 

[roaddog28]

I know the general consensus is that it's OK to use a limited number of 38+P rounds in steel J frames -- at least those from the late 50's or newer.

But my question is, what about the Airweights?

The trouble with Airweight J's has been frame cracks.

And so the thinking is, don't strain the frame with 38+P.

But on the other hand I've heard the following:

1. The frame cracks come about because of over tightened barrels during manufacture.

2. Older 38 Special ammo back when these guns were built is as "hot" as current plus p (and plus P didn't exist back then).

So, are we really taking an additional risk using +P in our old 37's, 42's, 38's, etc?

Have the ones "destined" to crack already cracked, or will they crack anyway no matter what ammo is used because of manufacturing issues or errors?

Here I'm talking carrying 38+P for defense with a limited about of practice with +P ammo -- and most practice with std pressure.

I'm curious what Airweight users actually do.

And since every thread needs a picture, here is my M37.

I have a suggestion. I would use 148gr wadcutters in your air weights. They are soft shooting and should not hurt your revolver. Also, another round I would suggest is a standard pressure lead semi-wadcutter without being a hollow point. Your not going to get much expansion anyway with a short barrel revolver. I am using this round in my M&P 38 special made around 1923. Never had a problem.
Good luck,
Howard

 

[rockquarry]

I bought a "like new" Model 38 about eight or nine years ago; didn't appear to have been fired outside the factory. Using standard pressure equivalent handloads, the frame cracked in the usual place after fewer than 200 rounds.

About the same time, I bought an old-style (exposed ejector rod) Colt Agent (alloy frame). I didn't know the history of this gun, but it had numerous small scratches and finish wear. Mechanically, it appeared to be fine and tight. Last fall while shooting standard pressure equivalent handloads, the frame cracked in the usual place where the barrel screws into the frame. I had shot this gun some, but really have no idea how many rounds I had put through it. A guess would be around 500 to no more than a thousand.

I have and have had a number of small-frame revolvers, both Colt and S&W. I probably shoot my steel-frame guns far more than most people but shoot the alloy-frame guns sparingly. While I have shot a few +P factory loads in the steel revolvers, I see no real advantage over standard pressure ammo and would never shoot the hotter ammo in an alloy-framed gun.

Standard pressure loads are generally easier to shoot well, recoil recovery time is not as great, and there is less muzzle flash if one shoots in a dark environment. All these factors can be very important in the right situation, far more important than an extra 50 feet per second.

Just some observations here...the older alloy-framed guns may have been intended primarily for carrying, with very limited shooting a secondary consideration. Newer technology and more robust materials probably means that newer guns are far stronger than those of a few decades ago.

 

[Cal44]

I did a poll of members of the forum asking if they had an Airweight that had cracked.

IIRC about 10% had.

That's not the same as saying 10% of Airweights crack as many members of this forum have multiple Airweight guns and would respond yes if any one of them had failed.

I still think there is something to the issue that old Aluminum guns were subject to "infant mortality" due to stresses that occur during the manufacturing assembly process (e.g., screwing on the barrel too tight).

Maybe if a gun has been used quite a bit and gotten past the few hundred round stage, it's less likely to fail in the future.

I wonder if the pinned barrel guns are less likely to crack as the barrel may not be screwed on quite as tightly since there is a pin.

 

[armorer951]

Because of the very modest terminal ballistic gain from +P loads, and the possible potential for damage to the gun, I don't use them.

S&W limits the ammo to what is plainly marked on the revolver's barrel. If it says "+P" on the barrel caliiber designation, you can safely use +P ammo.

 

[daddy bear]

I have a beautiful nickel 37 with a cracked frame. I don't want my 42 to end up the same way!

Jack

 

[Lt JL]

I carry a J frame or a Colt D frame every day. The Smiths are airweights, and the Colts are Agents, which also have an alloy frame. Since These guns are BUGs, I don't see the need to overload them; they are going to be used at contact range. So I use plain old wadcutters.

 

[shouldazagged]

This question comes up often and despite the "general consensus"
S&W does not approve steel J frames for use with +P except for a few
late production models that are so listed in their ammo-model tables.
As for older alloy J frames the answer from S&W is no +P period. Yet
owners of older lightweight J frames still manage to come up with
some rationale as to why it's really ok to use +P and that despite
what the manufacturer says the guns will handle it. There are lots of
owners that know that their logical thought trumps those confused
factory engineers. You knew the answer before you posted the
question. It's your gun so the decision is yours.

Curiously enough, I and about 4,999 other people have CEN-prefix dashless 640's (.38 special) from about 1990 that are factory-etched "TESTED FOR +P+". They appear identical, to my untrained eye, to regular 640's. My suspicion is that with regard to the steel J-frames it isn't the factory engineers speaking but the company lawyers.

If I owned an Airweight I believe I would practice with standard pressure ammo and, playing the percentages that my chance of having to use the gun for self-defense are minuscule, might carry +P. In a real Code Red SHTF the chance of cracking the frame might be worth the risk.

Disclaimer: I'm not an engineer, or a lawyer. Just an old hardhead. And I have no thought of carrying +P+ in the 640 because I don't see the need.