38 P+ load

[The Rabbi]

Most of what is marketed as "+P" today is pretty tame stuff by traditional standards. I wouldn't hesitate to shoot it in any steel framed Smith made after 1950.
A new company, Blue Bunny ammo, will be marketing 3 kinds of .38spc loads, including an FBI load and a 200gr load.

 

[smith57]

I shoot +P pressure reloads in my Md 60's (have 2 of them) almost exclusively. They are obviously not target guns, and I use the same ammo to pracice with that I carry. I have not noticed any negative effects from the +P loads on the gun at all..... moreso on my hand than the gun !

 

[David Sinko]

A few days ago I dragged out the chronograph, the short Ruger SP101 and a bunch of .38 Special ammo, much of it assorted factory loaded JHP marked +P on the case. None of the factory loaded +P was able to reach 900 FPS.

But that was just a warmup for the 158 gr. cast bullets I had loaded with SR4756. Those really do break 1100 FPS.

Dave Sinko

 

[stiab]

Most of what is marketed as "+P" today is pretty tame stuff by traditional standards.

Hi, I was just curious as to your source for that info. Thanks...

 

[BreakerDan]

Hi, I was just curious as to your source for that info. Thanks...

38 Special standard pressure charges from loading manuals have continually dropped for the last 30 years. What was a normal charge is now over +P. Also, factory 38 Specials from the 40-60s went around or over 800fps and most now are only at 700fps. From what I can tell, 38+p is were standard 38s used to be.

Also, 32-20 ballistics have dropped too. Standard loads from the 1950s that I chronographed go a full 100-150fps faster in the same load type than new ammo.
Ammo is and has been watered down.

For what it is worth, Elmer Keith took a first year production J frame in 1960
and put a whole case (500 rounds) of 38-44 rounds through it. 38-44 rounds were near 357 loads. He said they went 1100fps and were above +P+ pressure as we now call it. The little J frame made it fine and was checked completely for wear and tear with no problems found. I dont hesitate to put any factory 38+p in my J frame. I usually use Rem 158gr LSWCHP or Speer Gold Dot. I also know of people who have put 1000 rounds of hot +p through pre ww2 K frames with no damage. 38+p is just not that hot.

Source for Elmer Keith is his classic work, "SIXGUNS BY KEITH."

 

[stiab]

38 Special standard pressure charges from loading manuals have continually dropped for the last 30 years

Breaker, I read comments like that here all the time, but fail to see how someone can use reloading manuals as proof that FACTORY loads have been watered down. When the poster said "marked as +P", he seemed to be referring to factory loaded ammo.

You may or may not have seen the actual test results I posted a couple months ago comparing older versus newer 38 Super ammo, indicating the factory ammo of today is just as strong was it 70 years ago. I started with 38 Super in my testing because one of the members of this forum who in the past posted frequently on this subject used the downgrading of 38 Super as evidence the same thing had happened to 38 Special.

I have accumulated a lot of old and new 38 Special ammo, and will do that comparison test within the next couple of months. I don't know how it will come out, but I suspect that the significant decrease seen in FACTORY published velocites is due to the industry changes in 1978 that no longer allow using the long unvented test barrels. Even comparing S&W ammo pamphets from before and after the testing changes, the velocities dropped dramatically, with the earlier brochure saying test barrels were used, and the next saying real guns (i.e. Model 10 w/ 4" barrel) were used.

 

[BreakerDan]

Breaker, I read comments like that here all the time, but fail to see how someone can use reloading manuals as proof that FACTORY loads have been watered down. When the poster said "marked as +P", he seemed to be referring to factory loaded ammo.

You may or may not have seen the actual test results I posted a couple months ago comparing older versus newer 38 Super ammo, indicating the factory ammo of today is just as strong was it 70 years ago. I started with 38 Super in my testing because one of the members of this forum who in the past posted frequently on this subject used the downgrading of 38 Super as evidence the same thing had happened to 38 Special.

I have accumulated a lot of old and new 38 Special ammo, and will do that comparison test within the next couple of months. I don't know how it will come out, but I suspect that the significant decrease seen in FACTORY published velocites is due to the industry changes in 1978 that no longer allow using the long unvented test barrels. Even comparing S&W ammo pamphets from before and after the testing changes, the velocities dropped dramatically, with the earlier brochure saying test barrels were used, and the next saying real guns (i.e. Model 10 w/ 4" barrel) were used.

While I cannot personally verify the 38 SPL factory loads being watered down, I can in fact
verify the 32-20 has been watered down. I chronographed standard 115 grain ammo of 1940s-1950s vintage from Winchester and Sears in a 5 1/2" Colt SA. I got 825-875 fps with both. Modern Winchester Super X 100 gr went 705 and the Remington 100gr went 725 in the same pistol in the same conditions. The 15gr heavier bullet went 100 fps faster. I know for a fact 32-20 is not what it used to be. I would say the 38 Special is not what it used to be either, but that is just my opinion.

Quite frankly, the 32-20 is now a 32 S&W long. Thats why I reload it to what it should be, still being mindful of the old guns that shoot it.

I found your 38 Super article very interesting and was surprised at the results. The older is hotter in 38 Super is certainly an often told story. Guess it isnt true.
You need to do a test on old 38 Special. The only old 38 Spl I have chronographed is the Super X 200 gr "Super Police" load of 1970s vintage. 625 fps from a 4" Model 15 and 576fps!!!! from a 2" Model 36. I have two boxes so I thought I would try that old load out. It would be interesting to see old 38 data. I just know for a fact that 32-20 is watered down. I could certainly be wrong about the 38 Spl.

 

[stiab]

It will be an interesting test, for sure. I have not been able to add any old 38 Special ammo recently, will give it another month or two, and probably do the test when it cools off a little in September. There's no shade at the outdoor range I use!

 

[flop-shank]

Stiab, I'm looking forward to reading what you learn. Testing old vs. new .38+P is a very pregnant idea. Thanks in advance.