38 S&W ammo questions

[Brew]

I have read many many threads over the last two days about what ammo to use in my new to me 4th model. After all of the reading I understand both sides of the argument about modern smokeless or bp. I have decided to err on the side of caution and use a black powder substitute like triple 7 or pyrodex. I am willing to spend more time cleaning to save my gun in the long run.

Question 1. What powder charge and bullets are you guys using for pyrodex or triple 7. This is not a gun I am going to shoot a lot, but it will see some use as it will be the shooter of my hopeful collection.

Question 2. I have a large stock of .357 and .358 SWC and wad cutters around from when I shot a little bit of bullseye. I believe they are all 158gr but I will check before I use any. I have not found anything definitive on whether these are going to be OK or not for these older guns. I assumed yes because I have shot .355 bullets in my 686 with great accuracy, but I am a little more tentative with this older gun because I know that metallurgy is not the same as today. I do not want to run the risk of it changing pressure or doing some other damage to the gun.

 

[arjay]

Bp is typically filled to the bottom of the bullet with no airspace.Some bp substitutes work with smokeless bullet lube,and some don't.Bp and some substitutes need bp bullet lube or you end up with a very dirty and hard to clean barrel.Don't use any tools that can spark or build up a static charge such as a powder measure.It's fun to experiment with,but do some reading first as it differs from smokeless reloading.My only experience with this is in 45 colt in a modern saa so I have no idea whether it would be safe in an old gun.

 

[arjay]

As far as bullet diameter,drop one through the cylinder from back to front.If it falls through,accuracy will probably be poor.If it hangs up,but can be pushed through with a little pressure,it should be good.

 

[Kriskross]

Hi Brew,
what Arjay says + my own observations/problem from dabbling with .38 SW is that the .355 bullet I used was not wide enough to be held in place in the case, and could not crimp enough when using .38 SW dies (crimp would not "take" and the bullet would pop out from the buildt up, but very slight air pressure inside the case, or be pulled out by the bullet seater). I had to get a mould for a .360 diameter BP bullet, then it worked like a charm. Magnum primer over Pyrodex (3f equiv).

 

[glowe]

Since you probably do not have lots of different size bullets laying around, I would recommend using the standard for the caliber. 145 grain .359" dia round nose is a standard bullet for 38 S&W. You can also use a 200 grain, but I like to keep the bullet weight down, so I use 125 grain RNFP.

Personally, I stay away from Triple 7 for handguns. Go to their website and review the data. Triple 7 is hotter than black powder and they state clearly to reduce the load by 15%.

To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

Now you might be able to get away with that in a large BP rifle case by setting the bullet deeper in the case, but not in a low volume case like 38 S&W. Since you can not leave any air space between the seated bullet and the powder, you might think of using filler or cards, but Triple 7 site says do not use any fillers.

Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property.

So using Triple 7 will actually cause a risk of increased pressures over BP, so if you are set on only using something other than low pressure smokeless loads, I would recommend sticking with BP.

 

[McShooty]

Pyrodex will work fine and it will give you a good bang and some smoke, which adds to excitement and may arouse the curiosity of the Glock shooter at the next bench, which would be great. As others have said, fill the case to the base of the bullet when said bullet is seated to the correct depth. No need for fillers. MagTech sells a RN bullet for .38 S&W and I bought a bag from Midway recently. They seem OK, but many .358 bullets will also work OK and safely.

 

[arjay]

Wanted to add that I used american pioneer powder fff which works with standard bullet lube and is filled to the base of the bullet.

 

[DWalt]

.357-.358 bullets (standard for .38 Special) work just fine in my .38 DA 4th. But I have always used light smokeless loads (3.0 grains Unique with 125 grain .358 bullet) I have never had a problem with that load, and have fired many hundreds of them with no indication of any damage. If you're nervous, just drop back to maybe 2.5 grains of Unique.

 

[andrewstorm]

I too have wondered about which powder to use with antique s&w, 777 or 2f gotex or ,pyro rs,only 10 grains fit in the case,original pre 1899 ammo box states 15 gr powder and 146 gr bullet,if using 777 10 gr would equal original load without compression? Which powder works with modern lube

 

[glowe]

Some of the early BP factory rounds used heeled bullets, so there is not much lead seated in the brass. That allows more room for powder, hence 15 grains of BP. I have inspected and shot original inside lubed rounds that also have a shorter seating height to allow the 15 grains of BP. I have recently tried Trail Boss powder with good success. A couple of my favorite loads are below using Missouri 145 grain RN bullets. Also, added original BP velocity for comparison.

38 S&W 145 Trail Boss 3.5 569
38 S&W 145 Trail Boss 4.0 781
38 S&W 146 BP Original Factory 685

 

[Skeetr57]

Except for the rimfires and .44 S&W American, S&W never used heel bullets. All rounds from the .44 Russian and later used bullets with inside the case lube grooves. Colt even dropped their heel type bullets because the inside lubricated bullets proved superior.

 

[andrewstorm]

The earliest original load called 36/38 centrefire used an inside lubed bullet and was 146 gr bullet and 15gr powder no mention of granulation,and was loaded in a balloon head case,modern cases only hold about 10 grains bp,what would 10 grains of 777 yield

 

[garra]

I too was going to recommend Trail Boss. I worked up 12 rounds using 1.5 gns with a 158 gn bullet in .360 diameter. Seemed light on any recoil so I figured is was OK. I have seen bullets offered in .360, either Stonewall Bullets or Western Bullet.

gg

 

[tjpopkin]

Montana Bullet Works makes a series of bullets in .357-.360. Their bullets are REMARKABLE in terms of quality. Although not the least expensive, they are beautifully made....quality is uniform. See the site
Montanabulletworks.com
Terry

 

[DWalt]

Missouri Bullet Co. sells .361" dia. 146 grain lead bullets reasonably. But as is the case for most sources, be prepared to wait a few months for delivery. I have a bullet order in to MBC that is about 6 weeks old at present, and still no delivery. Those guys are working 24/7 to fill orders, and still can't keep up.

There is absolutely no good reason that anyone needs to fool around with loading BP or BP substitutes. 3 grains of Unique and a 146 grain lead bullet is a very light and perfectly safe load in any of the old .38 S&W breaktops, assuming that they are not rusted out junkers. As is factory ammo, if you can find it.

 

[nav0413]

I'd rather to use the standard size.

 

[rboineau]

DWalt is on the money. No need to worry about factory or mild handloads for 38S&W using smokeless powder. If your gun in in good condition, that is. Watch for corrosion in the chambers--in extreme cases rust there could weaken the chamber.

With my first 38S&W DA Top-break bought last year, I made up a few rounds of ammunition using cut-down 357 Mag cases and 125-grain lead 9mm bullets. Just as a trial, to get by without springing for a box of factory loads. Yeah, the 9mm bullets were a bit undersize but shot fine and were not noticeably less accurate than factory S&W cartridges I later got around to buying.

 

[glowe]

I'd rather to use the standard size.

Not quite sure what you mean, but if you are referring to the standard size bullet for a 38 S&W, .359" to .362" is the original and proper size bullet. .357" 38 Special bullets will usually give poor accuracy in these revolvers.

 

[DWalt]

Regarding accuracy (actually grouping), at one time I used .358 cast bullets a lot for .38 S&W, and they worked fine. Good grouping and no indication of keyholing. But I now use .361" as they are as easily obtained as .358.

Some time ago, I pulled bullets from some antique .38 S&W rounds and measured their diameters. They all ran .358-.359. I think performance depends on the gun.

There has always been speculation about the WWII-era Victory Model M&Ps in .38 S&W, and some believe their bores were the same diameter as the M&P revolvers in .38 Special. And that makes some sense from a production standpoint, as larger diameter bullets should work fine in a slightly smaller bore.

 

[andrewstorm]

old breaktop load

How about 2.2 grains bullseye and a158 gr swc@628 fps ?sound oldie safe?