38 S&W load devopment Pt. 1

[LouisianaMan]

50-yd. 200g test against pine tree, 157g against milk jugs

1. 200g results @ long range

Attached photos of 50-yard target fired off of sandbags, prone, with the 358430 bullet in .38 S&W (vel. c. 630) from S&W Mod. 33. Bullet weight was 197-98g, cast .360 from 50-50 WW-Pb + tin. See also "better" target with .38 SPL @ 725fps, 192-93g, cast from straight WW, sized .358, fired from S&W Mod. 67.

I've plinked with autos at 75 yds before, but this is the first time I've fired a 50-yd. target with revolvers. Although my marksmanship is nothing to brag about, it would not have been fun to stand in front of the targets, especially since there was no keyholing at all. I presume the difference in accuracy was due primarily to better fit, sights, weight of M-67, esp. since Mod 33's sights are nickel--a bit of a strain in sunlight.

I also fired .38 SPL into a live pine tree at 56 yards and my probe touched the base of the slug 1" deep, so the nose of the bullet penetrated about 1.8" into the wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

When I fired the .38 S&W slug into a different live pine tree at 58 yards, my probe found the base 5/8" deep, so the nose penetrated about 1.5" into wood, plus 1/4 to 1/2" of bark.

So, the .38/200 supposedly bounced off of an overcoat???? I can't speak personally for the British 178g FMJ service round, but this 358430 is very similar to the original Brit lead bullet 200g load, and anyone expecting his overcoat to stop this bullet had better be wearing blue tights with a big "S" on his chest!

2. Water-filled milk jug penetration test with 150g LSWC

BULLET: Lyman Ideal 360231 LSWC, nominally 150g, but 157g as-cast with 50-50+tin, sized .361

LOAD: 2.5g Win231. COL = 1.086" Crimped in crimp groove.

REVOLVER: S&W Mod. 33, 4" bbl.

CHRONO: LO 694.6, HI 713.7, AVG 703.9, ES 19.08, SD 6.85

POI @ 60' approx. +2"

PENETRATION @ 10 FT." (with both 4" and 2" guns)
a. Mod 33, 4" bbl: Shot chrono'ed at 690.3 fps, drove straight line thru all 6 jugs, halfway-exited #6 and buried up to shoulder in 2x12 stop board. Note deformed bullet nose in photo.

b. Mod 32-1, 2" bbl" Shot chrono'ed at 581.2 fps. drove straight line thru 5 jugs, cracked hole barely in front of #6, and stuck horizontally between #5 and #6. Note undeformed bullet nose in photo.

PHOTOS:
#017: Mod 67 .38 SPL with 50-yd. target
#018: Mod 33 .38 S&W with 50-yd. target
#004: Mods. 33-1 and 32-1 used for water penetration test of 150g LSWC, with recovered bullets at respective muzzles. Other cartridges shown, with nominal bullet wts. (L-R): Lyman 360231 LSWC 150g; Lee LSWC-TL 158g; Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; flat-pointed Lee GB of Lyman 358430 LRN 195g; RCBS 35-200 LFP, 200g.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Good stuff here! Thanks Louisiana Man. The concept of the blunt-nosed heavy has merit. The ol' Colt Banker's Special could see some "pocket time" with such loads.

 

[LouisianaMan]

bmcgilvray,
Yep, if pure penetration will do it, this blunt-nosed heavyweight should get the job done. Also, assuming the Beartooth "permanent wound channel" predictive model is relatively accurate, I'm assuming the actual wound channel of the 358430 might look more like .41 instead of .36. And if you hit bone, I expect the BG goes down.

Once I get the group buy 200g LSWC mold thru Cast Boolits in August, I can't wait to see what that bullet will do for this cartridge! I think the bumped LFN is pretty hard-hitting, but expect the SWC to be even more so. Also, I'll experiment over Spring Break with some 40:1 and/or 30:1 Pb:tin alloy to see if the softer bullet will deform markedly on impact. If so, I'll balance out the diameter of wound channel with remaining penetration & see what I want to use.

BTW, I'm trying to put together something with Brassfetcher testing. If he'll do the testing in .38 SPL loaded to .38 S&W vels, then I'll have to pay only for his material costs--he's interested in doing the test & will donate his time. I'll contact him again soon & see what firms up. If we can do a gelatin test with LRN, bumped LFN, and perhaps each one in two different alloys, it will be interesting to see how the bullet reacts in that tissue simulant.

 

[TomcatPC]

Hello

I think it was the .380in Mk.II (later WWII version with the 178 grain Ball Bullet) that did not penetrate a great coat?

I have heard about this "incident" a few times, was this a actual "scientific test" that was done by the Royal Ordnance Corps?, or just some bored squaddies that found a discarded German great coat?, not that it really matters LOL.

I am grateful enough to have fired a couple boxes of .38in S&W cartridges last week in my Webley & Scott Mk.IV and my S&W Victory Model. As much as I hear people say how weak the .38" S&W cartridge is, I can say that I would not want to be on receiving end of a .38" S&W LOL.

I have reloaded a box or two that I tried to get as close an I can to the original .380in Mk.I cartridge (200 grain lead bullet).
I had 200 grain lead bullets over 2.5 grains of Unique, and overall they did fairly well in my S&W Victory Model.

I wish I could say the same for the Webley & Scott Mk.IV, which the accuracy was "acceptable", but not "stellar". The bullets were undersized, they were .358" meant for a .38" Special, not a .38" S&W. I think in the future I can get both revolvers to shoot better.

But it was a step in the right direction, then again living where I do with no free access to safe and legal places to shoot on a regular basis, I was just grateful to have gone shooting LOL. Just wish I did not have to fork over $20 (U.S.) to get to shoot for an hour LOL.

I'm glad to hear an interest in the .38in S&W Cartridge.
Thanks
Mark

 

[LouisianaMan]

Several developments on my .38 S&W "testing":

1. Ordered the Skennerton book on the Enfield No. 2 today. Will advise when/if it provides good info on the cartridge.

2. Bought the only box of factory .38 S&W I've seen in 3 months, some Remington LRN. Will use it for "control" over chrono & vs. the long-suffering milk jugs

3. Received two packets of British .380 Mk 2Z ammo from a kind donor in the Lone Star State. Will chrono, penetration test & publish.

4. Will cast pure lead 200g slugs tomorrow & test later in the week. Ditto for a new 140g LSWC Lee mold I bought--may have to "beagle" it to get it to cast .360ish.

5. Possibly on Sunday, a fellow enthusiast will bring up his 4" Police Positive, in caliber .38 Colt New Police, to provide some comparison results in penetration versus the slower-twist S&W's I'm shooting. He also scared up a 1946 NRA book on pistols & revolvers, with detailed data on this cartridge, to include published vels (and the bbl. length used in testing). I'll post that info soon with these other updates.

6. Will mail some 200g slugs tomorrow to bmcgilvray in TX to shoot thru his 2" Colt and Webley. Will be interesting to see if the differing rates of twist will make any difference.

7. Will call Remington & Winchester tomorrow and request historical information. Wish me luck!

 

[LouisianaMan]

Chrono results, British Army Mk. 2Z ammo test, plus more "Greatcoat Shooting"!

Just a short report tonight from the battlefront, as your correspondent is busy catching up on both shooting and writing at this time. More to follow soon on yesterday's shoot!

LOAD: CIS .380 Rimmed, Mk. 2Z ball ammo, 178g FMJ

GUN: S&W Mod. 33-1, 4" bbl.

CHRONO RESULTS (10 rds.), temp. 80 degrees: LO 618.1; HI 656.4; AVG: 641.1; ES: 38.29; SD: 13.49.

POI at 50 feet, off chair/sandbags, sitting on ground: +5 3/4", R 2 1/2". First two rds. off paper (high); adjusted POA to bottom of cross, resulting in 8/8 hits in 2 1/4" group. 7 of the 8 went into 1 1/4".

ADDITIONAL "GREATCOAT TESTING":

1. Shot #1 @ 15', chrono'ed at 604.1 fps: went thru approximately 12-16 layers of wool coat plus multiple linings, cracked open milk jug behind the coat. Bullet fell out of coat upon examination, and the density of folds made it impossible to accurately determine the bullet's path. (It makes a small hole in the wool, and tends to practically seal up.) Bottom line: poorly-designed test shot, but it did show that if you rolled your overcoat up into a tight roll about 12"H x 18"W x 18"D, the bullet wouldn't get through In the photo, the uppermost cartridge case & bullet are from this shot. Bullet is undeformed, and neatly fits into fired case.

2. Shot #2, chrono'ed at 632.2 fps: went through 8 layers of wool coat fabric, 8 layers of synthetic coat lining, 4 water-filled milk jugs, lightly dented stop board and rebounded into jug #4. The holes ripped in the milk jugs indicated the bullet was nose-first entering jug #1, tumbling as it exited jug #1 and thereafter. I read somewhere that the water:gelatin ratio for bullet penetration is approximately 2:1. If that's correct, this shot would have penetrated 12" of gelatin (9" while tumbling), plus 8 plastic layers of milk jugs (7 while tumbling), AFTER passing through 16 layers of coat/lining. The bullet path was generally straight, deviating only slightly while traversing the jugs more or less through the center. Appropriately, this coat was marked "Made in England"! In the photo, the lower cartridge case & bullet are from this shot. Bullet is undeformed, and neatly fits into fired case.

I guess opinions may differ as to the desirability of having a pistol bullet tumble within its target, as tumbling may generally cause the bullet to veer unpredictably. If it was originally on track to hit vitals, it might miss. On the other hand, if it was originally on track to miss vitals, it might veer into a vital part. But the way Shot #2 acted, it provided both a straight track & lots of tumbling; plenty of penetration against unarmored targets, with presumably a wicked wound channel. This would also tend to reduce overpenetration & get lots of "target effects" before possibly exiting the target.

I will provide more shot analysis from yesterday's shoot ASAP. I'll close now with the observation that it's high time to put the infamous "German Greatcoat Story" to rest. Obviously, it was a case of faulty ammo. BTW, the only BIB I've ever experienced was in a S&W M-1917, shooting WWII surplus .45 ACP ball ammo. That didn't lead me to argue that the .45 was a "weak sister."

 

[LouisianaMan]

Help!

Does anybody have access to Textbook of Small Arms 1929, a British publication that evidently has good info about the original British Army .380/200g cartridge?

It was just recommended to me by Ian Skennerton, author of "The Book" on the .380 Enfield revolver.

 

[TomcatPC]

Hello

I hope this might help out a bit. I don't own this book, but I'm thinking I might have to consider buying it someday.
Thanks
Mark

Amazon.com: Textbook For Small Arms 1929 (9781843428084): War Office War Office: Books

 

[LouisianaMan]

Mark,
That is indeed tempting, isn't it? If I had a broader interest in Brit wpns of this era, I'd jump on it. As it is, however, there's really only the revolvers & their ammo. . .and I have several good WWII wpns books.
Will have to think this one over! Thanks for the tip--I imagined it was something esoteric & unavailable except for a university library, but Amazon strikes again!

 

[LouisianaMan]

See a quotation of the minimal info about the .380/200 contained in the Textbook of Small Arms, 1929, as provided to me by someone on another forum. Oh well, the search for info continues.
.380/200 bullet - British Military Handguns - Old Guns - British Militaria Forums - Message Board Yuku

 

[TomcatPC]

Hello once more.

The site that this link goes to really does not show any useful information about technical data on the .380" Mk.I Cartridge (200 grain lead version of the .380" revolver cartridge), or the later .380" Mk.IIz (178 grain ball (aka Full Metal Jacket) version) for that matter. But it does show an original .380" Mk.I Cartridge and photo of the .380" Mk.I headstamp. I don't think I have ever seen an original .380" Mk.I cartridge in "real life" LOL. Anyway, thought this might be interesting to look at.

As for the later .380" Mk.IIz cartridge, I think I read somewhere on the internet that Fiocchi makes a .38 S&W Cartridge with a 178 grain metal jacketed bullet?, has anyone here heard about that? I looked a bit online and could not find anywhere that actually sold this cartridge, if indeed they actually do make it?

Thanks
Mark
380_enfield

 

[LouisianaMan]

I looked at Fiocchi USA and they make a 145 or 146g FMJ, as well as a lead bullet of the same weight. Nothing bigger, though.

 

[solvability]

38 SW - Webley Mk IV

I just received 200gr Lead at .360 and want to load to safe specs.

If I understand I should be ok with these two.

2.5 Unique with 200g Lead

3.0 W231 with 200g Lead

Is this about right - as top breaks go the Webley is fairly strong.

I am really looking to find a regulated load for the factory sights.

Thanks very much - excellent thread.

 

[DWalt]

.38 S&W Bullet Diameter

Several years ago, I got a sack with a hundred or so rounds of loose ancient .38 S&W ammo at a gun show for a couple of bucks. In it were all sorts of old headstamps, including UMC, USCCo, REM-UMC, WRACo, and Peters. I fired some and got a high percentage of duds. A few that did fire had been loaded with black powder (no mistaking them). Some had significant click-bang hangfires. I pulled the lead bullets from the duds with an inertia puller, and miked their diameters. I found that, contrary to published data, they were not .360", but rather .356" to .358". To me, this indicates that the typical .356" to .357" diameter bullets as used in the .38 Special should be fine for loading the .38 S&W.

Most, but not all, of the old cases had balloon heads. Primer pockets in some of those were a little smaller in diameter than modern small pistol primers, as they could not be seated in the balloon head pockets.

While I have a .38 S&W DA 4th model, I do not shoot it often as it is in near-mint condition. I do have an H&R Defender breaktop of relatively recent (1964) manufacture with a 4" barrel, which is like new, and is a really fun gun to shoot. It groups well at 15 yards. My pet (and only) load uses a 125 grain cast .358" diameter lead bullet with a sort-of truncated cone nose. I seat the bullet to the base of the cone. I use 3.5 grains of Unique. This load shoots very well in the H&R, well enough that I see no benefit in spending the time and effort to optimize further, as the H&R is not a match revolver (but not bad in the accuracy department).

I do not have a .38 S&W die set. I use a .38 Super carbide sizing die and 9mm Luger neck expanding and seating dies. I do not crimp bullets, and have encountered no problems with bullets backing out under recoil with my loads.

 

[LouisianaMan]

Solvability,
I'm no ballistician, but your 3.0g of Win231 with 200g bullet seems a bit warm to me. My load (see post #31) is 2.7g, which gives 639fps over my chrono. In fact, I've gone down to 2.6g, with very little reduction in vel but perhaps a slightly cooler pressure. Brit specs were somewhere in the 600-650fps range, so my loads are right in that range.

I've read that Win231 may vary significantly from lot to lot, but if you don't have a chrono to verify vels, I'd recommend you stick with 2.5g - 2.6g. ****NOTE: even my loads are above published max loads!**** Lyman 49th calls for a min of 1.6g and max of 1.8g; the latter gives 550fps from a 5 1/4" universal test receiver. The pressure quoted was about 11,300 (PSI, I think, rather than CUP). That seems to be intentionally mild, in light of the weaker top breaks still in circulation. Perhaps you can start with 2.0g, then work up a bit until it's shooting to your sights.

DWalt,
Enjoyed your discussion of the old cartridges! Your results with bullet diameters reflect what I've read in some other threads. In Speer 13, they specifically stated that they used .38SPL bullets @ .358, and noted they got "acceptable accuracy." Don't know what that means, but I presume it's adequate for plinking and defense, i.e. it basically hits where it's aimed, but isn't a target load.

Do you happen to have any of those old loads still around? I'd especially be interested in discussing any of the old Super Police 200g bullet loads, if you have any. I presume most are 145-146g bullets? This summer I'm writing up my .38 S&W "tests," and would love to be able to include a photo identifying your old loads--of course I would attribute it to you, if you're willing to lend a photo.

I wish S&W would make a "Classic" version of the "New Departure" lemon-squeezer, with modern steels & tolerances and perhaps a slightly beefier lock. Especially if we could get a 200g lead flatpoint load to shoot from it, it would be a very concealable pistol with mild report, mild recoil, but the ability to smash a decent-sized hole thru a BG.

 

[DWalt]

.38 S&W Bullets

I do still have some of the old .38 S&W cartridges I kept as specimens. As is to be suspected, they are grungy-looking, but not corroded. All of the bullets I pulled were, as I remember, 146 grains. Incidentally, I loaded and fired those pulled bullets in .38 Super cases (light load), so I no longer have them. The cases from the cartridges that fired, I reloaded with my 3.5 grain Unique/125 grain bullet combination (after cleaning), except for those that had balloon heads. They reload fine. What type of pictures do you want?

If you're into odd S&W ammunition, a year or so ago I found at a gun show some new primed .38 S&W empty cases from Western, packed in full boxes of 50 that indicated, from the label, manufacture in the immediate Post-WWII era (Western Division of Olin Industries). Not so unusual maybe, but the cases were very reddish coppery looking, not at all like the color of brass. I didn't buy any, as the guy wanted too much for them (I think $20/box). I've not seen any modern ammo with copper cases.

 

[swabbie]

resurrecting the thread

I was fortunate to obtain a 200 grain .362 diameter 6 cavity Lee mold that had been ordered ,I suspect,from a Cast Boolits group buy

I originally bought it to load for my Enfield No2..My first loads were good,no signs of pressure..using Herco..range listed was 3.0 to 3.3 grains.the ammunition shot to point of aim at 15 yards,which was nice

I didn't have enough crimp,and have increased this..

I have since acquired a S&W regulation police in 38 S&W, and have a Victory model in 38 S&W as well on the way...
I'm going to drop back on the powder load for these, and will
publish chrono results when I have them...

No problem seating the 200 grain to correct OAL

results to follow..

 

[LouisianaMan]

Swabbie,
Thanks for the resurrection!

I got a nice Victory Model .38 S&W recently but haven't fired it yet. I expect the 193-200g bullets will shoot well in it. Although I think it could probably deal with higher vels than I've developed heretofore in my J frames, I'll stick with the same loads to avoid mix-ups.

At some point I plan to write up all my results, but this summer has worked out far different than anticipated

 

[mike p]

any one use a 95 gr boolet

i got a box of .359 95 gr lead boolets was concedering useing in H&R 38 S&W
any one got a smokless recipe for light boolets

 

[Mike Bloh]

Thanks to all contributors to this thread.
I recently acquired a Webley Mark III in .38SW.
First test with Remmington .38 SW 148 gr LRN.
Target at 7 meters, group was approximately 3 inches.
But this was my first time with this revolver.
I've purchased the Lee die set and will probably purchase a .361 mold from Lyman (358156) 150gr/.361.
Reloaded a few cases with a 158grLRN/3gr Unique/CCI. Results pending.
I too will be on the lookout for other pieces in this caliber. This Webley is well used.
Best wishes.