.38 S&W WARNING!!!

[sw44russ]

Hi fellas, I'm wondering if some obliging S&W Aficionado who is handy with a Camera would do me a small but potentially crucial favor....

I need some clear pictures of a modern .38 S&W Ammo Package; showing the Calibre, Brand and most importantly the Warning not to use Modern Ammo in old, faulty or Antique Guns.

From what I'm told there is such a warning on Ammo packaging and i may well need these pics to get the State Troopers off my back.

I'm in (Tasmania) Australia and we cant even get .38 S&W Ammo here, but I'm being hounded about my Pre 1899 Top Breaks and their Legality here. If I can show that modern .38 S&W is not strictly the Ammo that my TBs were made to fire, all will be good.

Now i know some of you guys use Modern Ammo in old Guns and I'm not wanting to start a debate on the subject; I just need some pics to show that my ole Smiths are kosher with our (insanely strict) Firearms Laws here.

If somebody has a pack of 38 Smith and can get some nice, clear shots showing those details, i would be much obliged.

yours in Antique S&Ws!!

Still the Best S&W Forum around by a Country Mile!

 

[Muss Muggins]

Can I safely shoot modern ammo in this gun?

This doesn't help your case, but it's from this forum, so it's probably pretty reliable . . .

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Not home now but I have a couple of boxes at the house . I'll check to see if the warning will help you any , not sure what it says past only use in guns originally designed for this cartridge and in good condition . I take crappy pictures but I can send you the empty box flat if it will help .

Eddie

 

[glowe]

Sorry, but I reload, so do not have any modern 38 S&W ammo boxes. I do know that there were gun boxes with warnings about smokeless powder in the early 1900s, but that changed within a few years. You might try searching the Forum since I have seen images of those early warnings on gun boxes.

I have not seen any US ammo with specific warnings about vintage and antique revolvers, but rather they were all along the line of "This ammunition is intended only for revolvers in good working order" or something like that.

From what I read about Australia and other countries gun laws, I would be surprised if the government officials would care much. Their intent was to limit ownership to firearms and access to ammunition, so why would they want to ease current regulations? The long slippery slope only goes in one direction once you start down that trail. That is what we worry about here in the US.

 

[sw44russ]

Not home now but I have a couple of boxes at the house . I'll check to see if the warning will help you any , not sure what it says past only use in guns originally designed for this cartridge and in good condition . I take crappy pictures but I can send you the empty box flat if it will help .

Eddie

Eddie, that would be fantastic!! See what the Warning says first up; but even what you say would be of help. The Law here states that the Gun must be made pre 1900 and 'for which there is no Ammunition Commercially Available' - to be legal (without a lot of hoop jumping) All i need to show is that todays Ammo is not the same Ammo that was made before 1900 - that's all. I'm looking for anything that will strengthen my argument...

It's late here so i'll sign off and see what else eventuates by tomorrow.

Thank you all for the help so far; the link to the other thread was very interesting too. Thanks Muss.

 

[Shark Bait]

I have some PPU and some Magtech. Here are what the two boxes say, which is basically the same. Not sure it helps you. It is still commercially available.

 

[opoefc]

S&W Safety Hammerless models made and shipped circa 1900 era contained a flyer in the box stating that the gun was designed for blackpowder ammo. & it could be harmful & unsafe to fire smokeless powder ammo. for which the gun was not designed. As you know, blackpowder .38 ammo. is no longer made. Perhaps a Forum member could post a photo of that flyer ( I don't currently have one ) . Also there are Forum & S&WCA Members in Australia that have these guns in their collections and have apparently satisfied their law enforcement requirements regarding the Safety H.hammerless models. Also, the Australian Arms Auction in Melbourne sells the SH Models, w/o a problem, so they may know how to prove the legality to the authorities. Ed.

 

[merl67]

I have a couple of different brands of new 38 S&W ammo none have warning you need primarily because there really isn't a safety issue. Modern 38 S&W ammo is loaded with the older top breaks in mind as long as said guns are in good shape, yes they may wear faster with modern smokeless ammo but they won't blow up shooting it.

 

[ExRanger714]

Buffalo Arms makes a 150 grain round nose holllow base over black powder.

Or at least it's the first hit on "38 s&w black powder for sale" Google search

 

[Peak53]

Do the local gendarmes have 38 SPECIAL in mind as the mistakenly modern equivalent? Perhaps 38 SW is not commercially available to you as it would be in this part of the world?

 

[glowe]

I finally located the references to smokeless powder in the S&W catalogs. First attachment is from a 1900 catalog, basically stating that the company would not warranty their revolvers with the use of smokeless powder, but by 1903, they they still did not warranty the use of smokeless, but extolled the virtues of manufactured ammo.

 

[Eddie Southgate]

Russ,

The Winchester boxes I have say : " Use only in arms in good condition designed and chambered by the manufacturer for this cartridge . If in doubt check with the gun manufacturer . " The rest is just stuff about the use of +P marked ammo and warnings not to reload without proper instruction . I will be glad to send you the box but looks to me like it would hurt you rather than help you . Id take opoefc's advice about contacting the local collectors and the auction house he mentioned . They should be able to help you with whatever documentation you need to prove your case .

Let me know if you want the box .

Eddie

 

[stu1ritter]

This is the only real warning on a Winchester/Western box of 38S&W 145 Gr.

Stu

 

[sw44russ]

S&W Safety Hammerless models made and shipped circa 1900 era contained a flyer in the box stating that the gun was designed for blackpowder ammo. & it could be harmful & unsafe to fire smokeless powder ammo. for which the gun was not designed. As you know, blackpowder .38 ammo. is no longer made. Perhaps a Forum member could post a photo of that flyer ( I don't currently have one ) . Also there are Forum & S&WCA Members in Australia that have these guns in their collections and have apparently satisfied their law enforcement requirements regarding the Safety H.hammerless models. Also, the Australian Arms Auction in Melbourne sells the SH Models, w/o a problem, so they may know how to prove the legality to the authorities. Ed.

Ed; this is GOLD!!! Better than what I asked for....now, to find a copy of that Flyer and some way to verify the Date....

i'm thinking maybe a new thread now; specifically to find a copy...

Thanks heaps man, this is exactly what I need!

 

[sw44russ]

Shark Bait, Stu, Eddie, Gary and all; thank you so much for your input....some of your images may indeed help.

Ed's heads up about this Flyer from around 1900 is going to be my Silver Bullet I think....

Now to track down an example.....

 

[PALADIN85020]

I don't know if this will help or hinder your quest, but I dug out this box of Remington ammo for my .38 Lemon Squeezer; not sure of the vintage.

John

 

[Cal44]

Here is what it says on the Buffalo Bore web site about 38 S&W loads:

"This ammunition is safe to use in ANY solid frame revolver that is in ordinary shooting condition. "Solid frame" means any revolver that is not a top break frame. "Ordinary shooting condition", means ANY revolver that is in condition to fire any factory made, 38 S&W ammo, without malfunction. Have a competent gun smith check your revolver for "ordinary shooting condition" if you have doubts, as many of these revolvers are very old and some imports were made of questionable quality as manufacturing techniques and materials were not advanced one hundred+ years ago. Be certain to take a copy of this press release to your gunsmith, so he can understand the context of your questions."

38 S&W (38 COLT NEW POLICE) Pistol & Handgun Ammunition

 

[PALADIN85020]

I don't know if this will help or hinder your quest, but I dug out this box of Remington ammo for my .38 Lemon Squeezer; not sure of the vintage of the ammo.

John

 

[Targets Guy]

 

[DWalt]

I don't remember ever seeing any warnings printed on ammunition boxes about not using factory ammunition in old or antique guns, just warnings similar to those shown in the pictures above. Modern.38 S&W factory ammunition (with one exception, being Buffalo Bore) is lightly loaded with smokeless powder to pressures no higher than the old black powder .38 S&W loadings from the 19th century precisely because there is such a large number of old top break revolvers still around, and that people still shoot them. Buffalo Bore sells a more heavily loaded .38 S&W cartridge which they warn is to be used ONLY in newer solid frame revolvers, not top breaks. Maybe someone does have a box of those which shows that warning. See posting #17 above. That might be your best bet.

I suppose you could contend that any revolver made prior to around 1900 (or slightly earlier) was designed for the use of ammunition loaded with black powder, and that type of ammunition is no longer generally available. At least in the USA, .38 S&W ammunition has been loaded using smokeless powder since 1894.