38 S&W

[Hawk36]

My friend passed away June 6 and his family gave me a Nichol plated 38 S&W. The shine is gone from the barrel. The gun seems to be in excellent firing condition. I thought it was a 38 Special, but found out it is not. The closest thing I can find points to it being a 38 Smith & Wesson Super Police revolver. The serial number on the bottom of the grip begins with a "V" followed by 6 numbers 327_ _ _. I found out the "V" stands for "Victory." When opening the cylinder there is the same S/N on the face of it. Once opened, and looking at the usual place for the Model No., the following is found in two locations: 74926. On the left side of the front sight are the words "Parker Hale," then under that the word "England." On the right hand side of the barrel is "38 S&W CTG." On the right hand side under the cylinder is "Made in U.S.A." I don't believe the grips are original with the gun.

I went to one of our gun shops and told the gunsmith about the revolver. He said it was from WWII era, but he had never heard of those being in Nichol plate. So, I am looking for the following:

1. Was the gun used by the British in WWII?
2. Was it made during WWII for the British but used by a US Police force instead -- or US Military Police?
3. Was it retooled for the 38 Special cartridge and if so, how do I tell?
4. If not, where can I buy a box of 50 just to shoot it and then have cases for reloading?

 

[murphydog]

My friend passed away June 6 and his family gave me a Nichol plated 38 S&W. The shine is gone from the barrel. The gun seems to be in excellent firing condition. I thought it was a 38 Special, but found out it is not. The closest thing I can find points to it being a 38 Smith & Wesson Super Police revolver. The serial number on the bottom of the grip begins with a "V" followed by 6 numbers 327_ _ _. I found out the "V" stands for "Victory." When opening the cylinder there is the same S/N on the face of it. Once opened, and looking at the usual place for the Model No., the following is found in two locations: 74926. On the left side of the front sight are the words "Parker Hale," then under that the word "England." On the right hand side of the barrel is "38 S&W CTG." On the right hand side under the cylinder is "Made in U.S.A." I don't believe the grips are original with the gun.

I went to one of our gun shops and told the gunsmith about the revolver. He said it was from WWII era, but he had never heard of those being in Nichol plate. So, I am looking for the following:

1. Was the gun used by the British in WWII?
2. Was it made during WWII for the British but used by a US Police force instead -- or US Military Police?
3. Was it retooled for the 38 Special cartridge and if so, how do I tell?
4. If not, where can I buy a box of 50 just to shoot it and then have cases for reloading?

Hi, and welcome!

This is a Victory Model as you noted. It is officially a .38/200 British contract gun, which is the .38 S & W cartridge as stamped on the right barrel with a 200 gr bullet. Parker-Hale modified many of these after the war - yours has an aftermarket nickel finish, different stocks, the barrel has been shortened and a front sight/ramp added.

It has probably been rechambered to .38 Special. Look inside each charge hole from the rear of the cylinder for a shoulder about halfway in, or try to fully seat a .38 Special round. An unmodified cylinder will have the shoulder and a Special will not seat fully. If a .38 Special seats, it is a potential problem, as most guns were modified by simply boring the chambers straight. The S & W round is wider, so the Special case will expand and sometimes bulge/split/crack with firing. .38 S & W ammo is available, but about $30 per 50.

The V and six digits is the serial number, the five digit one is a factory internal code that shows your frame and cylinder were fitted together and are original. Hope this is helpful.

 

[lowhog]

Welcome,I think the the large prewar n frame 38/44 heavy duty was called the 38 super police when it first came out.designed too shoot the hv 38 special loads.heres a picture of one here.Regards Lowhog

 

[gerald mcdonald]

Welcome,I think the the large prewar n frame 38/44 heavy duty was called the 38 super police when it first came out.designed too shoot the hv 38 special loads.heres a picture of one here.Regards Lowhog

The 38 S&W 200 grain load was also called the super police. I wouldnt want to get a 38/44 load in an old Victory that was chambered for a 38 S&W and bored for a 38 spec.

I think I read some where on here a short while back that the Parker & Hale conversions were nice quality that were believed to have bored and sleeved the cylinder for 38 spec.

 

[Hawk36]

OK, I tried a 38 Special round and it fits flush in the cylinder. There is some play which isn't bad, but it seems to be a little more than on another 38 Special which I used to compare. Although the 38 Special rounds may split, bulge, or crack when fired, is it safe to shoot the gun with a medium load?

A book at the gun shop said these pistols were worth from $200 on the low side (rough with rust spots) to around $600 on the high side. I took this to mean if they were not modified. Since this one has been modified and the Nichol plating is faded on the barrel, but everything else seems to be in working order, what would this one be worth (ballpark figure)?

BTW, thanks fellows for the replies and information.

 

[gerald mcdonald]

You should be good with mild loads until you determine how it is chambered.

 

[Muley Gil]

"...what would this one be worth (ballpark figure)?"

$125-$200, depending on your location

 

[Art Doc]

The Victory Models are fine guns but unfortunately many were butchered after the war. Bad plating jobs and unwise reaming of the chambers are common. The plastic "stag" grips are also quite common on these.

The gun will still shoot 38 S&W and this is the ammo that should be used in it. Although many of these guns are apparently fired with the incorrect 38 Special ammo I personally would not do it. If you reload, the 38 S&W cases are available and I load mine with standard .357" bullets (made for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum) which are slightly under-sized but seem to work fine in my guns. If you can get properly sized .360" bullets they would be even better. If you don't reload then the 38 S&W is not a good choice as ammo is hard to find and pricey.

In my opinion your gun is worth about $125. But that's just my opinion.

 

[charlie sherrill]

All good answers. Plus, if the hammer and trigger are nickeled they gun has almost always been refinished.

 

[pbxtech81]

Try nothwest shooter supply in Washington state. They were the only ones I could find that had 38 s&w in stock. I just recieved mine today. They are larger in dia. then 38 special. You would be better off if you use the correct ammo. And a lot safer too. Good luck!

 

[pbxtech81]

If your looking for 38 s&w ammo you might try northwest shooting supply in Washinton. I have been trying to buy some for a gun I recently bought and this was the only place i could find them in stock. The 38 s&w is a larger Dia. then a 38 short or 38 special. From everything I read you should not shoot them in a 38 s&w. Good luck

 

[majex45]

British interest

Your revolver looks to me like a Victory model that has been modified by a British gunsmith for civilian use.
After the War, there were thousands of pistols sloshing about in the UK and many were bought as surplus by UK dealers (it was difficult for civilians to buy them) and modified for target shooting or for export.
Parker-Hale did a lot of these conversions, they also sleeved them to .22 and guaranteed the group size.
I suspect it remains in 38-200 (.38 S&W) as 38-200 ammo was easier to obtain then, especially in the UK although the catalogue does state they could be had in either calibre. Yours is model number 2034 (S.384) in 38-200 or 2031 (SW.384) in 38 Spl.
If it is in 38 Spl, can you see any rings where the cylinder has been sleeved? I would like to know if they passed proof without sleeving.
They also sold the parts (sights etc) to other dealers in the UK and the USA to do their own modifications (sort of like a UK based Brownells). See the attached copy of a page from the Parker-Hale catalogue of (about) 1968. There was also an adjustable rearsight mounted on the 5th screw hole which would fit S&Ws without gunsmithing and the colt equivalent with one hold being drilled.
If Parker-Hale did the work the revolver will carry British civilian proofs on the barrel, cylinder and frame. If you can, please take close ups of these so we can see. I expect the nickel plate was a later addition; although Parker-Hale were capable of doing this it is not listed in the catalogue.
All in all, an historic firearm and worthy of more study. Congratulations on having such an interesting revolver.

 

[Hondo44]

If a 38 S&W round fits in the chambers, they have not been sleeved and I would not shoot 38 Specials in the gun. If 38 S&W does not fit in the chamber it has been sleeved and you can only shoot 38 special or 38 Long Colt in the gun. 38 Long Colt was the predessesor cartridge to the 38 Special and less powerful. But best of all, it's redily available because it's a ressurected obsolete cartridge now common and loaded by all the Cowboy Action Shooter ammo makers: Black Hills, Ten X and UltraMax. That's what I would shoot in your gun if 38 S&W doesn't fit.

 

[Norton 750]

Ammo is scarce; factories are still selling all the "mainstream" ammo they can crank out so older rounds like this are getting pushed back further and further in the production schedules. Whats out there is probably going to be all that is available for a while.

 

[Wiredog]

If your looking for 38 s&w ammo you might try northwest shooting supply in Washinton. I have been trying to buy some for a gun I recently bought and this was the only place i could find them in stock. The 38 s&w is a larger Dia. then a 38 short or 38 special. From everything I read you should not shoot them in a 38 s&w. Good luck

I have two boxes of these for sale due to the fact I have a .38 Special
I know what the box says but the round says " REM-UMC 38 S&W

 

[Texas Star]

I have two boxes of these for sale due to the fact I have a .38 Special
I know what the box says but the round says " REM-UMC 38 S&W

Show a cartridge out of that box, please. I suspect that you have .38 S&W Special ammo. This is not the .38 S&W "regular" being discussed for those old .38-200 revolvers.

If you really have the shorter .38 S&W ammo in that box, someone has replaced the original contents. Judging from the way the cartridges fit the box, I think they are probably .38 Specials.

 

[Texas Star]

Your revolver looks to me like a Victory model that has been modified by a British gunsmith for civilian use.
After the War, there were thousands of pistols sloshing about in the UK and many were bought as surplus by UK dealers (it was difficult for civilians to buy them) and modified for target shooting or for export.
Parker-Hale did a lot of these conversions, they also sleeved them to .22 and guaranteed the group size.
I suspect it remains in 38-200 (.38 S&W) as 38-200 ammo was easier to obtain then, especially in the UK although the catalogue does state they could be had in either calibre. Yours is model number 2034 (S.384) in 38-200 or 2031 (SW.384) in 38 Spl.
If it is in 38 Spl, can you see any rings where the cylinder has been sleeved? I would like to know if they passed proof without sleeving.
They also sold the parts (sights etc) to other dealers in the UK and the USA to do their own modifications (sort of like a UK based Brownells). See the attached copy of a page from the Parker-Hale catalogue of (about) 1968. There was also an adjustable rearsight mounted on the 5th screw hole which would fit S&Ws without gunsmithing and the colt equivalent with one hold being drilled.
If Parker-Hale did the work the revolver will carry British civilian proofs on the barrel, cylinder and frame. If you can, please take close ups of these so we can see. I expect the nickel plate was a later addition; although Parker-Hale were capable of doing this it is not listed in the catalogue.
All in all, an historic firearm and worthy of more study. Congratulations on having such an interesting revolver.

Majex45-

Thanks for the view of that catalog page.

BTW, I did "get" the "1066" bit in your location. I wonder how many Americans today know what it refers to. Actually, my son has written a rather good treatise of the Battle of Hastings on an Arms and Armour site.

 

[Wiredog]

Show a cartridge out of that box, please. I suspect that you have .38 S&W Special ammo. This is not the .38 S&W "regular" being discussed for those old .38-200 revolvers.

If you really have the shorter .38 S&W ammo in that box, someone has replaced the original contents. Judging from the way the cartridges fit the box, I think they are probably .38 Specials.

The .38 S&W is also called the .380 Rim and .38 S&W Corto.
I have REM UMC .38 S&W cartridges NOT .38 spc or .38 special rounds....38 S&W came from a former State Trooper who used a .357 also. Short fat lead ball 158 grain I think, or less.. I'll check. My guess is you may be able to shoot it in a .357.? Wrong box.

 

[Texas Star]

The .38 S&W is also called the .380 Rim and .38 S&W Corto.
I have REM UMC .38 S&W cartridges NOT .38 spc or .38 special rounds....38 S&W came from a former State Trooper who used a .357 also. Short fat lead ball 158 grain I think, or less.. I'll check. My guess is you may be able to shoot it in a .357.? Wrong box.

No, no! You are not SUPPOSED to be able to chamber it in a .357, although I had two Model 19's that were so sloppily made that they WOULD accept even a fired .38 S&W case from a real .38-200 revolver. That was during the Bangor-Punta ownership of S&W and QC left much to be desired. Mind you, I did not FIRE one of these shorter, fatter rounds.

The bullet weight is normally 145-146 grains, depending on manufacturer. The .38 SPECIAL is usually 158 grains in the standard loading, although Plus P has usually lighter bullets, except for the SWC-HP version. Both .38 S&W and .38 Special have been loaded in the past with 200 grain bullets.

Please post a photo of the headstamp of your ammo. Remember, much of the .38 Special is labled .38 S&W Special, as the firm developed both cartridges. The now-dormant .38 Colt Special was the same load, with a slightly flattened tip on the bullet. Its sole reason was to let Colt claim it as its own. Marketing rivalry...


Will someone please post photos of these rounds side-by-side? I'm afraid that someone here is going to use the wrong ammo.

Look at the pictured box. It is labled for.38 S&W Special! And the rounds fit it as they should, almost to the top of the box.

The fact that some state cop had some ammo means nothing. Many cops have very vague ideas about ammo. The last three that I asked here had no idea which bullet weight they had in their 9mms. One had to call his girlfriend and get her to look in their closet and read the bullet weight and brand off the box! Unless an individual officer is coincidentally a gun enthusiast, they usually aren't a good source of firearms info. Neither are gun store clerks.

 

[Hondo44]

+1 for everything Texas Star said!