.38 Safety Hammerless 4th Model (Bicycle Gun) Found Grips

[DARE]

My first gun that can go in the Antique forum.
Serial Number 182xxx. Shipped June 12, 1905 to Simmons Hardware, St. Louis, Missouri. Originally blue with black hard rubber stocks.
Non factory nickel refinish and post war grips.
Does not function. Owner said it did years ago. Have to push forward on the trigger to engage the hand so that cylinder will turn. Does not cock the hammer.
Does anyone still work on these?
Would like to find some original grips and trade the ones that are on it.

 

[gmborkovic]

David, need some more pics. Appears to have been a re-nic. With J frame grips. No need to shoot it.

 

[DARE]

Here is the other side of the gun and the letter. LMK what other photos you want.

 

[gmborkovic]

Dont need anymore pics. you got a 2". Where is the barrel address?

 

[DARE]

".38 S&W CTG" on left side of the barrel with a dingbat at each end.

 

[mmaher94087]

Your 4th Model, .38 Safety Hammerless with the forged front sight is interesting. The forged sight is normally associated with the 5th Model.

Parts can be difficult to find but patience are needed to find them. I believe a new trigger spring will cure the trigger return problem and, without seeing the innards, a new front (DA) sear might cure that problem of not cocking the hammer.

Before running off to gather parts, there is one more test question; With the revolver broken open, does the hammer fire as designed when the trigger is pulled? I understand that the trigger does not return, but does it fire? The answer may indicate another problem.

Try Jack First for the parts. You might need to replace the parts yourself as Top Break Gunsmiths are difficult to find.

Your revolver should digest modern, factory loaded .38 S&W. Stay away from "hot" loaded stuff like Buffalo Bore that is for Hand Ejectors.

 

[DARE]

Mike Maher, thanks for the reply. The trigger return seems to be working now. The cylinder turns every time without having to push forward on the trigger. The gun does not fire in the open position. The hammer is not being cocked. Maybe something broken on the trigger so that it does not engage the hammer.
Don't think I am capable of working on the gun. Will have to find someone that can take a look at it.

 

[BC38]

FWIW, it sounds to me like the issue with this one is that it's innards may be gummed up with old oil deposits.
If so, a good cleaning of it's lockworks may be all that is needed to return it to 100% function.
The fact that the trigger return started working again without any other repairs would seem to indicate that things may just be gummed up.
A good flush/cleaning is certainly the easiest possible repair solution, so that's where I'd start.
JMO, and I may be wrong, so YMMV...

 

[mmaher94087]

Well David, you have an interesting problem. I'm glad the trigger return spring seems to be OK, and the cylinder turns with each pull. The spring that operates the hand (to turn the cylinder) is also the spring that holds the front sear (the DA sear) to the hammer for cocking the revolver.

At this point, I can only guess but I think your revolver needs a good wash out with a spray cleaner like Break Free or automotive carb cleaner, brake cleaner or the like. Take the grips off and drown the guts with the spray; work the action and respray. Drench it liberally as "the more, the merrier". let the revolver drain and spray in a liberal dose of gun oil like Rem-Oil. I'm betting that the old oil has congealed and hardened over time based upon the PO stating that it used to work. Please report back.

 

[gunbarrel]

I have a revolver similar to yours (re-nickeled, and everything), but in .32 S&W. I would dry fire it once and the mechanism would stop functioning. To open it, I would have to take my thin blade pocket knife, and push in the firing pin. I flushed the mechanism with gun scrubber until it came out clean, but still wouldn't work. Parts are available at Numrich, Poppert's and eB. My gunsmith found that the firing pin was broken, and fixed the problem for $75. Later, I found out online that many S&W Safety Hammerless revolvers have broken firing pins from excessive dry firing. Here are a couple of illustrations that may help.

 

[gunbarrel]

One more schematic from one source

 

[mmaher94087]

David, the parts that affect the hammer operation are #45 and #47 in the illustration in post 10. They are the front sear (DA sear) and the hand and spring. Since the cylinder now revolves, I'm ruling out any trigger problems. Does the cylinder lock/unlock, as designed, when the trigger is pulled? I still think the problem is hardened oil in the mechanism.

 

[DARE]

Thanks, gunbarrel for the schematic. Think I have some sort of a firing pin problem also. At first, when I tipped the gun down the firing pin came forward. If I pushed it in, no resistance like no spring. If I tilted the gun up the firing pin would retract.
Now it is retracted all the time. Tilting the gun down does not move the pin.

Thanks Mike M, the cylinder lock seems to work properly. With the gun open I can push down on the cylinder stop. There is a spring but it seems weak. When I pull the trigger the hand moves up to rotate the cylinder and the stop is locked and cannot be depressed.
Need to get to the store to get some sprays to try to clean the mechanism and oil it.

 

[mmaher94087]

David, your firing pin problem sounds like the spring is broken. A cut down ball point pen spring will fix that.


I'm more concerned with the cylinder stop and nonfunctioning hammer. Let us know what changes occur after the parts washing.

 

[mmaher94087]

If this revolver was in my hand, then all of this Q&A would be complete in a minute and a half. One more question, please. With the revolver closed, as if loaded and ready to fire, does the cylinder revolve to the next chamber and lock in battery when the trigger is pulled? I'll make you a Safety Hammerless gunsmith by the time we figure out the problems with your revolver and I'll tell people to call you for help.

 

[DARE]

Yes, seems to lock up fine. When I pull the trigger the cylinder rotates and the cylinder stop locks up.

 

[mmaher94087]

Great! You just dodged a bullet. If the "split Spring" (#52) was broken, then the cylinder would not move and lock. That spring is impossible to find. I'll wait for your report on the drowning and oiling of the internal parts. The next question after the flood will be: Does the hammer move when the barrel is pointed straight up? This will indicate a broken handspring or chipped (DA) front sear. Both parts can be found at Jack First Gun Parts.

 

[DARE]

Hosed the gun out with Gun Scrubber a couple of times and then applied new oil. Hammer fires now. The firing pin flops around, so maybe broken firing pin or at least a broken spring.
Thanks for the help.

 

[mmaher94087]

Glad to know that it works now. Both the broken firing pin and/or the spring are prime candidates. I will lay money on the spring being broken as this is a common problem.

To fix the firing pin problem, drive the pin out that is just below the latch. The pins are not tapered, so it makes no difference which side they are driven from. I recommend a "starter punch" from Brownell's and working from the right side so that any small 'oops' are not that apparent.

After the pin is out, break open the revolver and pull the trigger a few times. The inertia of the firing pin will drive out the "firing pin bushing" which is the round thing in the breach of the frame where the firing pin pokes out. Clean the bushing pocket (a Q-Tip helps) and reinstall with a new spring and/or firing pin.

The spring can be made by clipping off 3-4 coils from a spring found in a ballpoint pen. If a new firing pin is needed, then contact Jack First. They may have the spring also.

I'm so glad to hear that the revolver now works. The firing pin problem will make it 100%.

 

[DARE]

Many thanks to Mike Maher.
He told me how to correctly install the joint pivot pin and screw. It was backwards in my gun.
Here is a pic of the gun with the screw on the correct side.