38 Single Action 2nd Model Target sights

[shown50]

I bought this 38 SA 3 1/4”, the other night on GB. It’s got a Lyman ivory front bead, I believe this is one made before 1895 when the name was dropped for the #4 designation. It’s got Lyman’s Pat. Aug. 31. 88(or 86) stamped on one side and cross hatching before the bead on the front.
The rear sight is what caught my eye, I know these weren’t offered in target models. The work is very well done and it appears to be welded on to the numbers matching latch. I can’t find a name on the rear sight anywhere, has anyone seen this before?
The serial number is 279. I was told it shipped July 16 1887 to M.W. Robinson In NY in a large order. The gun cleaned up well and works perfectly. The stocks don’t match so if you have serial number 49189 I have your stocks!
There’s an L stamped in the latch area on the barrel has anyone seen that before? Thanks for any help!

 

[shown50]

More pictures

 

[shown50]

Last pictures, it had a lot of yellowing before I hit it with some flitz.

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


Very nice .38 SA. You may not realize it but I was the one bidding
against you but you just wanted more. I hope you get a letter and
it lists the target sights.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[orbruce]

38 SA 2nd Model

This Model was offered with target sights, see catalog plate attached. The target sights I have seen on the 2nd Model are different from what is on your gun.

B. Mower

 

[rct269]

Target Sights----also known as "adjustable" sights:

The factory target sight applicable to guns of this era was designed and manufactured thus: A slot was milled in the stock latch from one end to the other---leaving two slender latch tangs instead of one thick one. The sight carrier had its own tang (identical in configuration to the now two latch tangs, and of a thickness to fit in the aforementioned milled slot). (You can see all three tangs looking from the top down.) The latch/sight assembly is a two piece part (not counting the elevation adjusting screw in the bottom of the latch, nor the several components of the sight carrier).

The sight carrier is screw adjustable for elevation, the screw being accessed from the bottom of the latch--and centered on the sight carrier tang. It is adjustable for windage thus: The sight blade is a single piece attached to the carrier via a retaining plate secured by two small screws. Adjustment is made by loosening the two screws, and moving the blade by hand.

Nothing in or about the latch/sight assembly is welded to anything!!

As a complete aside, the slot milled in the latch (and through the latch tang) severely weakened the latch tang---that strength is restored via the sight carrier tang---when it's installed. DO NOT install the latch in the barrel alone, alone being without the sight carrier in place----and if you do for one reason or another, ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, DO NOT open/close the barrel (as the case may be). If you should open/close the barrel absent the sight carrier in place, here's what's going to happen: The weakened latch tangs are going to bear against the barrel catch cam---and its very short, VERY STOUT little spring. Being weakened, and left unsupported by the sight carrier tang, they are going to bend---into the only space available---that being where the sight carrier tang is supposed to be---but isn't!!!! At that point, being made of the best steel available at the time (which is steel in name only), they are going to break---SNAP!! At that point you are going to be in DEEP DOO-DOO!!

Been there---Done that!!

Oh the shame of it all!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[shown50]

Hi There,


Very nice .38 SA. You may not realize it but I was the one bidding
against you but you just wanted more. I hope you get a letter and
it lists the target sights.


Cheers!
Webb

Really? I had no idea! Were you bidding at the end? I told my Fiancée that I thought the last bidder was going to get it. I try not to bid against other members sorry about that. I’ve asked Mr. Mundell and Mr. Helms about it, they were able to tell me when and where it shipped but the sights weren’t mentioned. Mr. Mundell said the rear sight looked a little fat for S&W work so I take that as not factory. I’d love to know the manufacturer of the rear sight because it’s actually really nice. I’m going to have my cousin load up some BP rounds and go shoot this thing.
It shipped the same month/year as my Baby Russian so that’s pretty cool.

 

[rct269]

I can tell you the manufacturer of the rear sight. It was an imaginative, highly skilled metal worker who despised the abominable sight picture as it came from the factory. The essentially same abominable sight picture continued well into the 20th century (and no doubt beyond) and was perhaps S&W's way of telling folks to cough up the extra bucks for a target gun.

I've never seen a fixed sight gun from ANY era that had decent sights.

I take that back! My carry gun is a Colt Special Combat Government Model---an early one with fixed sights----Trijicon night sights---with a great sight picture----been hauling that around for 30 years or so.

Ralph Tremaine

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,

Really? I had no idea! Were you bidding at the end? I told my Fiancée that I thought the last bidder was going to get it. I try not to bid against other members sorry about that. I’ve asked Mr. Mundell and Mr. Helms about it, they were able to tell me when and where it shipped but the sights weren’t mentioned. Mr. Mundell said the rear sight looked a little fat for S&W work so I take that as not factory. I’d love to know the manufacturer of the rear sight because it’s actually really nice. I’m going to have my cousin load up some BP rounds and go shoot this thing.
It shipped the same month/year as my Baby Russian so that’s pretty cool.

Its all right. You have every right to bid against me. Yes, I was
the one that came in at the very end (I see no point to bidding
early). If you looked at the bidding history, you would have seen
my bidder' ID (which is the same as my ID on this site). It was
the Target Sights that attracted me to this revolver and I wanted
to examine the rear sight. You did post pics and that was good.
I hope you will enjoy it!


Cheers!
Webb

 

[shown50]

I can tell you the manufacturer of the rear sight. It was an imaginative, highly skilled metal worker who despised the abominable sight picture as it came from the factory. The essentially same abominable sight picture continued well into the 20th century (and no doubt beyond) and was perhaps S&W's way of telling folks to cough up the extra bucks for a target gun.

I've never seen a fixed sight gun from ANY era that had decent sights.

I take that back! My carry gun is a Colt Special Combat Government Model---an early one with fixed sights----Trijicon night sights---with a great sight picture----been hauling that around for 30 years or so.

Ralph Tremaine

I agree with that! The fixed sights are awful, it’s very hard for me to pick them up.

 

[shown50]

Hi There,





Its all right. You have every right to bid against me. Yes, I was
the one that came in at the very end (I see no point to bidding
early). If you looked at the bidding history, you would have seen
my bidder' ID (which is the same as my ID on this site). It was
the Target Sights that attracted me to this revolver and I wanted
to examine the rear sight. You did post pics and that was good.
I hope you will enjoy it!


Cheers!
Webb

I’ll keep an eye out next time, I try not to bid against other members just to keep prices down for us. Most of the stuff I’m bidding on doesn’t have a lot of competition. I honestly thought the pictures scared people off of this one and they’re in low demand as well. If you come to the June symposium I’ll bring it and you can check it out. I’m going to look for a period correct set of stocks to replace the ones on it.

 

[rct269]

A little gallows humor for a change---at the request of a truly sick member--but possessed of a great sense of humor.

My "Been there---Done that" experience went like this: I had purchased a rather unique NM #3 Target----one of those chambered ONLY for 32-44 or 38-44 S&W cartridges---says so in ALL the books! This one was chambered for "38 WINCHESTER CTG"---which was stamped right on the barrel. I don't recall what I paid for it, other than A LOT! (It sold during the liquidation of my collection for $6500---somewhat A BUNCH more than either of the regular, everyday NM #3 Targets.) The history of this gun is sparse, and the factory records do not note the caliber---only that it "appears to have been a special order for a single unit."

So anyhow, it was this gun that suffered from the combination of my ignorance and carelessness. The lesson learned is if you don't know what you're doing, don't do it until you do!!

So here I am with busted latch tangs. What to do? What to do is find a WIZARD gunsmith who can fix it---AFTER you create a fallback position----just in case he can't fix it. My fallback position was to get a replacement latch/sight assembly for a NM #3---and Lowes didn't have any! Enter George Dye, he of Salt Lake Collectibles---who used to be he of working with David Carroll-----and he who was known as "The Sight Guy" because he could come up with sight bits and pieces on fairly short notice. He came up with a COMPLETE, damn near AS NEW latch/sight assembly for a NM #3!!----and I'm good to move on with my search for a fixer. That search yielded two different responses. The most plentiful was "I don't know if I can fix it or not, but I sure would like to try." THAT, somehow, doesn't make for a warm, fuzzy feeling inside!! Then there was one, a man of few words, who said, "I know I can fix it."

He did, and did it in no time flat, and charged a whopping $75-----and you couldn't see where it'd been fixed even if I showed you where to look!! The fallback position from George was $200----cheap at twice the price!! I sat and stared, and figured the fix didn't take more than 30 minutes----'cause like he said, "I know I can fix it."

Color me a happy camper!!

Ralph Tremaine

 

[Boulder350]

This Model was offered with target sights, see catalog plate attached. The target sights I have seen on the 2nd Model are different from what is on your gun.

B. Mower

I saw the same picture in the catalog as B. Mower several years ago and assumed what B. Mower did. Based on the picture it looks like the second model SA in 38 S&W.

Then earlier this year i was reading the Smith & Wesson Collectors association book 4, and saw an article written by R.J Neal in the Spring 1990 of the Journal and he states that the Model of 1880 is actually the Mexican model, or the Model of 91 with a spur trigger attached. He goes on to say that Smith and Wesson used this old picture/illustration for the Model of 1880 (aka the Mexican Model) up to and including the 1905 catalog. In the 1906 catalog they started using the picture/illustration of the Model of 1880 as a Model of 91 with the spur trigger