Single Action 2nd Model (Model 2, 2nd Issue)?

[demkofour]

This little piece showed up today at the gun shop where I work. It came in to possibly be deactivated so that it could be displayed for nostalgic purposes. The pistol appears to function well and has matching numbers. Serial number is 28167. Grips are intact but there is no apparent serial number on the right panel.
I’m not in the least bit familiar with this model, so here’s some pictures so that our Antique aficionados and SMEs can weigh in on it. Thanks in advance.

 

[iby]

can you pirate internal parts?

 

[mmaher94087]

In the interest of preserving the value and not destroying the antique, I'd remove the mainspring.

 

[BMur]

Early topbreak

This variation replaced the Baby Russian in 1877. Production actually overlapped and they sold quickly. Over 100,000 produced. So your example likely sold prior to 1880. I would guess 1878.

These early topbreaks were the first to be “speed loaded” using early disposable wooden wafers. This fact along with the patented auto eject feature made them very viable weapons for many years.

The Baltimore Police along with other law enforcement used these type weapons during the Railroad riots of 1877 with great success in stopping violence in the streets and continued using them for 40 years. Using speed loaders really does impact the single action feature in a very positive way.

The only reason sales slowed was due to the Bull Dog double action revolver impacting the Market selling cheap double action revolvers that required very little mechanical aptitude to shoot.

So the market bought into those big time. Problem with the bulldogs is you can’t reload them quickly. These S&W single actions could be reloaded very quickly using the early wooden wafer speed loader called a “clip” and required the operator to aim at the intended target by design.

Murph

 

[demkofour]

can you pirate internal parts?

The center screw is removable, but unfortunately the upper right screw head is a bit buggered and “frozen” right now. I’d like to drop it in the sonic cleaner when a get a chance to hopefully free up the screw.
If I remove some internal part(s), I’d assume that they can’t be replaced or replicated, making the gun “inoperable”?

 

[wlw-19958]

Hi There,


I guess it is a question of "How Deactivated" does it have to be?
One could grind off the tip of the firing pin on the hammer and
prevent the gun from firing (until one gets another hammer).
Or one could weld the topstrap to the frame and the gun could
not be loaded.


Cheers!
Webb

 

[demkofour]

I was able to get the sideplate screw removed without buggering up the head any worse than it was. Despite being absolutely bone dry inside, the action was remarkably smooth and strong, a testament to how these guns were built 140+ years ago!
Through a third party I was able to speak with the owner, who apparently is not a gun guy. He said the revolver was his dad’s service gun (as a deputy out West) and he wanted to keep the gun as a keepsake. When he was informed that the gun was more than 140 years old, he acted surprised but still wanted to keep it.
After explaining to him what was entailed to deactivate it, and that I’d be willing to rescue it from that fate, he straight up declined. Something about if it was worth a million dollars he’d then, and only, consider selling it… Oh well.
I took a few more pictures of the gun. It seems so simple, yet so efficient.
What a sad ending.

 

[mmaher94087]

I'm not often astounded by people's ignorance but there are exceptions. I'm positive this antique would get up in the middle of the night and waylay the owner during a potty break. Probably has every light on in the house too.

 

[mmaher94087]

Ok, this bugs me enough to respond again. I don't like "the almighty buck syndrome". If I owned the shop, I'd refuse to do the work. If the person wanted the work, then the price would be the stated one million. If the requestor handed me the million, then I'd hand it back and ask for the revolver. It was the price stated.

 

[BMur]

Can’t save everything

I’ve come to appreciate deactivated guns myself.
I’ve seen many machine guns in private collections that have been de-milled as the term goes.
Had they not been they would have been destroyed in this wonderful State of California and I would never have had the opportunity to examine them. That includes some weapons from Alcatraz prison.
So hanging on a wall de-milled actually is much better than being destroyed in my opinion.
I own a few antiques that were de-milled prior to my purchasing them and I enjoy them just as much as any other.

Murph

 

[shamuscull]

Unfortunately people do lots of things with their own property that collectors of that same property disagree with. A shop trying to make a customer happy by modifying an item so that he may lawfully own it seems like pretty decent business model. Not everyone collects

 

[bigwagon]

What is the owner's reasoning behind deactivation? It can't be a legal requirement like in the UK. is he just afraid that this evil antique firearm will jump up and load itself and go off half-cocked? Where does he think the ammo is going to come from if he doesn't buy it and put it in the gun? If he is just a 'fraidy cat, I like the idea of removing the mainspring.

 

[demkofour]

What is the owner's reasoning behind deactivation? It can't be a legal requirement like in the UK. is he just afraid that this evil antique firearm will jump up and load itself and go off half-cocked? Where does he think the ammo is going to come from if he doesn't buy it and put it in the gun? If he is just a 'fraidy cat, I like the idea of removing the mainspring.

Unfortunately, here in New York, to possess a handgun legally, you must first possess a valid Pistol License. The person who wants the gun deactivated wants to keep the memory of his father alive, and does not have, nor does he want, a Pistol License.
As shamuscull so accurately noted, we are trying to accommodate a customer.

 

[cgt4570]

I can't speak for NY law, but per ATF, that isn't even a firearm (pre- January 1, 1899). It doesn't require a 4473 to sell. It can be shipped to anyone, anywhere.

 

[shamuscull]

I can't speak for NY law, but per ATF, that isn't even a firearm (pre- January 1, 1899). It doesn't require a 4473 to sell. It can be shipped to anyone, anywhere.

Unfortunately NY sucks.

 

[steelslaver]

Use JB weld to fasten some round stock in each chamber.

It would be possible at some futher date to heat the cylinder and remove them

 

[bigwagon]

Unfortunately, here in New York, to possess a handgun legally, you must first possess a valid Pistol License. The person who wants the gun deactivated wants to keep the memory of his father alive, and does not have, nor does he want, a Pistol License.
As shamuscull so accurately noted, we are trying to accommodate a customer.

In that case, does NY state have a statute that specifically outlines the criteria for deactivating a pistol in order to exempt it from the licensing requirement? That is what you should be researching if that is the intent. Under the law, it might not be sufficient to simply render it not easily capable of firing. For example, in the UK there is a very strict and draconian list of requirements to qualify as deactivated.

 

[BMur]

ATF

The ATF governs the de-milling requirements however in this case it’s a Non-Gun. As per ATF definition.
The term firearm does not apply so making this antique non functional is all about a focus of liability for the owner. To be able to put it on the wall knowing it can’t fire prevents a child or irresponsible youngster from easily discharging it. There is no other issue here.

Modern guns require the receiver cut per ATF rules and regulations to qualify as de-milled and non functional since the receiver “is” the firearm.

Murph