38 sp case resizing

[skrazo]

While reloading the other evening, the cases began to bind on the seating die when seating a bullet. I finally figured out the case mouths appeared to be flared too much, thus causing the binding. I had changed nothing on my die (Lee) settings. Anyway, I resized the cases (no flaring) and on some of them a bullet will just fall down into the case. I would appreciate someone explaining why the cases are now too big?. Thanks................

 

[hanno]

Are you using jacketed or lead?

 

[elpac3]

Cases were a tad longer than the other cases which pushed the case mouth a little higher on the expander resulting a more flare.

 

[Maximumbob54]

Is this the turret press? If so then check the square nut that the turret rides and make sure it's still locked in place and there isn't build up over or under the rod. Since they are Lee dies, if you are reloading single stage them make sure the rubber o-ring lock is still holding the die body in the right setting. It's easy to start losing that setting if you twist the die body that last little bit instead of holding the lock ring itself to tighten the die in the press. But as for the case being sized and the bullet falling inside, you have to be doing something wrong or using the wrong bullets.

 

[Vulcan Bob]

Sounds like a mismatch of bullet and case. For the .38 Special a jacketed bullet should be .357" diameter and a lead bullet .358" diameter. Some cases such as the Remington's are a bit on the thin side for case wall thickness, this affects how well the case will grip the bullet. If by chance you have bullets meant for the 9mm that would explain all as they are .355"-.356" in diameter.

 

[mikld]

You sized, primed, charged some cases then when you tried to seat the bullet the cases rubbed the ID of the seating die? Then you took the offending cases and resized them and the bullets were too loose? Is this what happened? On the first sizing, are the bullets too loose? I would check the diameter of the case, measure with a micrometer, after the first sizing/bullet seating. Check again after the seating die problem, and after the second sizing. It's just as important to find out when the cases become too big as how (find out when and you'll know why). You may be distorting the case in the seating die...

What press, dies, bullets, and brass are you using?

 

[gwpercle]

Need all the details, can't solve this one without particulars and photo's would also help.
Facts, just the facts, all the facts sir.

 

[skrazo]

A Few Specifics

1) Bullets are 158 gr Lead SWC's. Have reloaded approximately 3000 of them in my 38sp and 357. They are the correct size.
2) Have a Hornady setscrew type locking ring on the flaring die. It was secured with the allen screw.
3) Using "mixed headstamp" brass. Been reloaded many times.
4) The bullet fit was OK during the first seating. Bullets seated and crimped OK. I just did not like the "feel" of the brass "scrunching" as the cartridge was being pushed up into the die.
5) Using a RCBS Rock Crusher, single stage press. Lee dies.
6) About 25 casings involved in this exercise. "All" the bullets do not fall down into the casing.......some are a bit loose.......some are tight as should be. Did not flare the casings the second time.
7) Since I have a separate "crimping" die, I'm thinking of just getting the cartridges reloaded and crimped, firing them, then going through the whole process again to see if the problem reoccurs.
8) I keep thinking that actually "firing" a cartridge somehow expands the brass so the resizing die works better(properly?)
9) I just feel I need to "understand" what's happening. If I'm doing something wrong, it needs to be corrected.
10) I have not checked the brass length to see if it needs trimmed. Have always heard pistol brass never needs trimming.

The thing that really "bugs" me is; "Why doesn't the sizing die return the brass to the proper diameter?" Sorry for rambling so much........I just want to understand what's happening.

 

[John R]

You don't have a cracked carbide ring in your sizer die do you?

 

[skrazo]

You don't have a cracked carbide ring in your sizer die do you?

I'll check and report back. Sometime tomorrow before I get it done.

 

[nedlate]

I finally figured out the case mouths appeared to be flared too much, thus causing the binding. I had changed nothing on my die (Lee) settings. Anyway, I resized the cases (no flaring) and on some of them a bullet will just fall down into the case.

I have never resized a case after flaring the mouth. I wonder if this is where the problem is?
Ed

 

[jag22]

When you say you resized them are you saying you removed the the decapping pin and resized the entire case or did you just go down far enough to remove the flair? I kind of remember going thru the same thing, its been a while. I think thats what finally worked and I do remember as Vulcan Bob mentioned most all of them were Remington. Never did figure exactly why.

 

[hanno]

As regards the excessive flare - since you are loading lead, you might want to get a Lyman M Expander Die. You will be glad you did. With the Lyman M you can minimize the flare and still seat your bullets without shaving any lead.

I load lead in .38 Special and started with Lee dies. I replaced the seating die with a Hornady seating die and the expander with a Lyman M. Still use the Lee sizer. Having used this setup for a while, I wish I had bought the Hornady and Lyman years ago.

 

[rwsmith]

Not rambling...

1) Bullets are 158 gr Lead SWC's. Have reloaded approximately 3000 of them in my 38sp and 357. They are the correct size.
2) Have a Hornady setscrew type locking ring on the flaring die. It was secured with the allen screw.
3) Using "mixed headstamp" brass. Been reloaded many times.
4) The bullet fit was OK during the first seating. Bullets seated and crimped OK. I just did not like the "feel" of the brass "scrunching" as the cartridge was being pushed up into the die.
5) Using a RCBS Rock Crusher, single stage press. Lee dies.
6) About 25 casings involved in this exercise. "All" the bullets do not fall down into the casing.......some are a bit loose.......some are tight as should be. Did not flare the casings the second time.
7) Since I have a separate "crimping" die, I'm thinking of just getting the cartridges reloaded and crimped, firing them, then going through the whole process again to see if the problem reoccurs.
8) I keep thinking that actually "firing" a cartridge somehow expands the brass so the resizing die works better(properly?)
9) I just feel I need to "understand" what's happening. If I'm doing something wrong, it needs to be corrected.
10) I have not checked the brass length to see if it needs trimmed. Have always heard pistol brass never needs trimming.

The thing that really "bugs" me is; "Why doesn't the sizing die return the brass to the proper diameter?" Sorry for rambling so much........I just want to understand what's happening.

In troubleshooting the more detail the merrier.

Sorry if the response is amateurish, just brain storming here.

Do you happen to have the resizer set for .357? The shorter .38 case won't size quite as much unless the die is almost touching the shellholder.

Check the length of the cases as this could well be the problem. Even if they don't 'need' trimming they need to be the same length.

Are you using an 'M' resizer that opens the mouth of the case a little besides just flaring it? If so, every case needs to be expanded, just not as deeply to avoid over flaring.


These are variables likely to cause the above. If these are ok, then we'll proceed to the next step.

Besides being too heavy handed in other areas, I had a tendency to way over flare and had to partially size the cases just enough to reduce the flare. I'm doing better overall now. Some people have said they never messed up a .38/.357 case in many years of reloading. Even though I'm doing better I still find that hard to fathom, especially with the .357s.

PS Not Rock Crusher, Rock Chucker. I don't know where the name came from but to me it could be called a 'Case Crusher'. There's a lot of leverage in that contraption and I don't doubt it could crush rocks. Ever caught your finger between the case mouth and the die when sizing or a bullet being pressed falls out?

 

[Green Frog]

As a Biologist, I like to follow the Scientific Method, so I would examine one thing at a time. First, I would size several of the offending cases... full length, all the way to the base. Next, I would try to hand seat a bullet in the just-sized case. If it is loose at this point, your sizing die is the problem.

If not, prime and powder and adjust the belling die up until it doesn't flare at all (just barely entering the case mouth at all) and again try to hand seat a bullet. If the bullet is loose at this point you have a mismatch between the expander ball and the bullet.

If the bullet won't start, lower the expander ball until there is just enough flare to allow the bullet to enter the case mouth. With flare and working the brass, I find "less is more." I like to stress the brass as little as possible.

A thought occurred to me as I was typing here... if the brass has been reloaded several times it may be work hardened. Normally the expander ball opens up the brass a certain amount then the brass "springs back" just a little. If the brass needs annealing, it may remain opened up to the greater diameter of the e-ball and give you a loose fit.

Be sure to report back with what your problem turns out to be... I'm sure you aren't the only one who will ever have it!

Regards & Good Luck,
the Green Frog

PS I like to do things "with flair" sometimes, but I flare my case mouths enough to avoid shearing or shaving lead.

 

[skrazo]

More Info

Since my last post:

1) Last evening, I ran each case (24) through the sizing(resizing?) die 2 or 3 times. Found one split mouth.....took a magnifying glass for me to see it..........discarded it. Now we're talking about 24! I'm "fully resizing" the cases. "Very Carefully" removed the primers, complete strokes on resizing.
2) The bullet/case fit was tight enough I could process and crimp (with a separate die) all 24 cases.
3) I'm anxious to shoot them, run them through all the dies again, and see how things turn out.
4) Carbide ring in sizing die is OK.
5) I have another set of dies I use for 357 reloading, but decided not to use them "yet".

6) "Case hardening" may well be part of the equation. I'm hoping that "firing" the cartridges may some "cycle" them so they again process properly. I'll report back after the firing.
7) I appreciate all the responses thus far. I enjoy the "reloading" just as much as the "shooting" so figuring out what happened is part of the fun.
8) I "think" the problem is going to be that the cases were "overflared" to begin with, thus causing the friction/binding between the case and inner part of seating die. At this point, I also to tend to believe that "case hardening" may also be a factor.

RW: Thanks for the "bump".........I knew that! Another "senior moment"!

 

[rwsmith]

Keep us posted....

Even if it takes a while, come back and keep us posted until you/we figure out what's going on. We can all put it in our collective notebooks (mental or otherwise) as to what can go wrong.

 

[skrazo]

Update

I fired all 24 rounds yesterday. Brought cases back, deprimed, re-adjusted flaring die, re-adjusted seating die. All went well as it used to. Cartridges are now reloaded and ready for firing again. As stated above, I think the initial problem was due to the cases being flared too much and rubbing the inside of the seating die. If anything else out of the ordinary occurs, I'll post about it. I appreciate all the feedback on this item.

 

[Reddog]

Skrazo,
I use some Lee dies in some of my reloading. I have found that any of them can change setting just by screwing in place. The o-ring just won't hold the setting tight enough. Also, I have bumped the die with my hand and changed the setting. Such as reaching for something past the die and accidentally hitting it with my hand. I lock my Lee dies in place with Goop on the threads. It can be changed, later, if needed. Lee dies are inexpensive but I feel this is a flaw.
Dick

 

[Cd586]

Replying here for information's sake, but glad you figured out your issue. Since it is not clear from the original post, if you resize a case and don't put a new flare on the case, the bullet will not have enough neck tension to stay put and it will slide into the case. The flare is necessary. On brand new brass you could try to not flare the case and just seat the bullet but you risk buckling the side of the case or messing up the bullet.

 

[Shooter Magaven]

Every time I feel a bullet seat way too easy or the shell comes down without a bullet in it, or little to no resistance on the flare stroke, I look for a split case mouth. And 9/10 time thats what it would be. The 10th time it is a case I forgot to size...:/