.38 special and .357 snubby questions

[pinkymingeo]

I wonder about the usefulness of very hot loads. Once you've made two holes in your target, you've accomplished all you're gonna do whether your bullet left the barrel at 1000fps or 1300fps. There's as much hype and horsepoop in ammo selection as there is common sense, I think.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

With all due respect, Gun4Fun, my experience with muzzle flash differs from yours. I did an experiment once. Loaded max 357mag charges of TG, HS6 and H110 under 125 gr. JHP and shot them one after another from 2-1/4" 640. I had another person, my daughter, watching the muzzle flash as it is difficult for a shooter to observe the flash. She did not know what was in the loads and was just reporting on the size of the flash. H110 was a clear winner; the flash was well over 3' long...

Mike

I believe you. I am simply reporting what I have gone through on numerous occasions at the range. As I said in my post, it has to do with case volumn as much as powder. If you take those same powders but use them in a larger case, the results will very likely be much different. A friend of my next door neighbor was there a while back videoing some of my shots. Watching shots on video reveals a lot. I knew some loads were flashing, but didn't realize exactly how much until I watched his video. The load was 8 grains of 231 under a 200 Speer flying ashtray, and fired in my 4" 25-5. When I went to my next load of 12.5 grains of HS-6 under the same load, I got hardly any flash. A relatively fast powder vs. a medium burn rate powder.

I do know that case volumn in relationship with powder choice, barrel length, caliber, and bullet weight, changes the equation quickly.

 

[Skip Sackett]

No offense, but I'm with Mike on this one!

Gun,
I know you have some experiences to back up what you are saying. I'm not trying to be impolite but they differ greatly from ALL I have read, heard and experienced on my own.

In fact, most folks have VERY differing opinions and experiences from what you have posted. I'm not saying that the faster powders are "flashless", I'm just agreeing with others that slower powders in shorter barrels seems to have more flash.

It is a well known fact on the forum that I hate H110 for that reason. I have gotten into heated discussions with folks that I have high regard for their loading ability and experiences over the use of that one powder. I agree with them that it meters great, that it produces great accuracy and velocity and that it is a "clean" burning powder. I agree with them on all of that. Just one thing though, I have never had one of them try to tell me that it didn't produce a huge flash, never.

I suppose I would cease to consider them viable resources of handloading information if they did seeing they would be liars at that point.

They have negated my concerns about the flash as I was being paranoid and the like, and they may well be right, but not one has ever said that the flash wouldn't be there if I used it, none.

I'll stick to the conventional wisdom on this one that slower powders in short barreled handguns produce a larger flash than fast powders in the same firearm. It coincides with my experience, study and information from folks that reload and shoot.

Even canoe and I have bumped heads over H110. I still value his input though on a myriad of other handloading information.


FWIW

 

[canoe on the yukon]

A man should have confidence in what he uses.If the degree of muzzle flash is a great concern,I think he should stick to loads/powders which minimize that characteristic.

I won't tell anyone what should or should not bother them.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I believe all you guys. It just isn't what I've experienced. I won't tell anyone that H-110/296 (same powder,different can according to Hodgden) doesn't light up a room. I have had some fun with that when shooting with new shooters.

We must read different magzines etc. I have over a thousand issues of various mags., including Guns, Gun World, G&A, ST, Petersens Hunting, Ar, AH, old issues of Gun Digest going back into the early 50's, and above all else Handloader. I would bet one of my guns that if you could find and read every article on this subject, it would be a draw. All data is subject to who is doing it, on what day, what gun, the weather etc. Perhaps if I shot more fast powders outdoors, I would have different views. I use them indoors, and save the slow powders for outdoor use where I can let the horses run. I am not trying to change anyone's mind, just relate my experiences from almost 30 years of trying different loads. In the interest of full disclosure, I have had more experience with guns that wear 4" or longer tubes, but I have played with several short tubes, mine and others.

BTW, I know that you have been posting about your experiences with Lil 'Gun. It's a darn good powder, and is the powder of choice for my .475.

I haven't had any noticable flash with it either, even when shooting under the canopy on dark days. I like it very much.

I guess we're stealing the thread here, so to the OP, I apologize for the drift. Lots to learn and hash over when it comes to relo... er, hmm, handloading.

 

[Capt. Cormorant]

Thank you!

 

[canoe on the yukon]

Thank you!

Capt,

To expand on that just a tad.Non jacketed bullets can be damaged if the case mouth is not flared enough.With jacketed bullets,that problem doesn't exist.Expand the mouth "just enough"so that the bullet base slips inside the case mouth a small amount.This way,you will not damage the case mouth.A very tight fit is desirable between bullet and case.A tight crimp should also be used.Do not overcrimp.

 

[Paul5388]

Just a short word on flash. I think you may find it is related to the amount of nitroglycerin content a particular powder has. All of the powders mentioned so far have been double based powders and some have flash deterrents incorporated in them.

Try the same level of load with a single based powder like the IMR SR powders (not IMR 700X or 800X) and Accurate Solo powders and see if there's a difference in flash.

 

[Capt. Cormorant]

Alright Gun 4 Fun and Smith Crazy what would be one powder you would choose for a snubby and why? I can see you two have been reloading for a while…

 

[Skip Sackett]

Long enough to know better!

Alright Gun 4 Fun and Smith Crazy what would be one powder you would choose for a snubby and why? I can see you two have been reloading for a while…

Cap'n,

I need to qualify my reply a little here. I have two suggestions for powder use and it differs because of the firearm they are used in and who is going to shoot it.

For +P loads out of an alloy framed revolver I am going to use HP-38 or faster in 38spl. In steel framed revolvers and 38spl I only have one powder, SR4756. Whether it is a "J" frame all the way to "N" frame, from a short barrel it is going to be SR4756 with data from the Speer #8. In a steel framed 357mag revolver, depending on who is shooting it, (like the wife for instance) it will get nothing faster than SR4756. I like Accurate Arms #9 and I have a MILSURP powder that I use too called WC820. I need to build some with Longshot and Lil' Gun but haven't done that yet. 2400 is a useful powder too in the 357mag at the upper end of the data.

I like to experiment and haven't done any with this criteria for some time as other projects have taken my focus.

The other difference from your components is bullet weight. I cast my own bullets. I have a 125gr mold but prefer the heavier bullets in either caliber. In the 160gr area for me.

There are a myriad of choices available today as far as powder goes. We should feel fortunate for living and reloading now rather than 40 or 50 years ago. There were a lot fewer choices back then.

That's the long answer., something I am good at giving!

Hope this helps.

 

[Gun 4 Fun]

I actually agree with most of Smith Crazies post above except that I don't use either SR 4756, or have access to any WC820. I generally have had excellent results with HS-6 for top end standard loads in .38, as well as .38 +p loads. I also have had good luck with Unique for standard loads in the .38. These loads are all within industry standards according to the manuals I got them from, and have given no problems in any of my guns what-so-ever. I have no control over your loading practices, shooting conditions, or the gun you may choose to shoot them in. Please keep this in mind.

125 gr. JHP- 5.5- 5.8 gr HP-38/231 std primer
125 gr. JHP- 6-6.5 gr Unique std primer
125 gr. JHP-6.5-7.5 gr HS-6 std primer
125 gr. JHP-7.5-8.5 gr HS-6 std primer = +P load

For the .357 I have had pretty good luck with H-110/296, 2400, AA#9, and yes, Blue Dot. HS-6 makes for really nice mid-range loads in a lot of calibers, from .357 up to and including my .475 Linebaugh. I know Blue Dot isn't recommended for the 125 gr JHP any more, but I never had any trouble with it.

I won't list any loads for the .357, due to the huge number of different guns available, and in different material types. I have only had experience with the .357 in all steel guns, and don't plan on changing that. I use loads that are available from the well known major bullet, and powder companies. I start below max, usually in the middle of the loads listed, and work up to what they recommend, or until I see signs that I am getting very near what the particular gun I'm shooting them in will take without probelms arising like sticky extraction, or a sudden jump in velocity that is out of line with what the way they have been tracking acroos the screens.

I will say that when working with H-110/296, be careful to follow the manuals exactly! They don't work well in loads that are reduced even slightly. You could end up with delayed ignition, hang fires, or dangerous pressure spikes.

I hope that is of some help to you.

 

[Skip Sackett]

I actually agree with most of Smith Crazies post above

I start below max, usually in the middle of the loads listed, and work up to what they recommend, or until I see signs

The reason you agree with my post is because it makes good sense, just like my other posts! (Just kidding!)

I do the same thing you do, start in the middle and work up. Reason being is that I choose my powder and load that way. I look at the bottom and the top of the reported velocity that will cover the one I want. Usually I don't have to work up anything as it will suffice as is.

So, I guess I have to admit, at least on this channel, great minds are on the same frequency!

 

[Paul5388]

We should feel fortunate for living and reloading now rather than 40 or 50 years ago. There were a lot fewer choices back then.

Skip, I have at least 3 powders that are at least 50 years old. DuPont #6 doesn't seem to be too useful, but the 1940s Unique works fine as does the 1956 SR 4756!

I need to look into that can of Herco and see what it'll do as a medium burning powder in the HS-6/SR 4756 range.

 

[pinkymingeo]

How about a pic of your driveway, Paul. I bet there's a Studebaker out there!

 

[Wayne M]

A l..o..n..g.. time ago I quit trying to develope loads for short barrels because my chronographing has shown me(at least in my guns) that the advantage in velocity stays with the slower powders. I also don't have to worry if the "right" ammo is in whatever gun I grab because it's all the right ammo. The comfort factor of short barrels may be different for some shooters depending on your tolerance to felt recoil and blast. To this I would add that the slowest pistol powder I use is AA#9 in magnum and often AA#7 in the non mags.

 

[Paul5388]

Here it is Pinky, but it isn't a Studebaker.

I do have a 1971 Super Beetle down in the pasture, but I've never owned a Studebaker.

BTW, here's a 1964 TR4 I broke a telephone pole with in 1966.