.38 Special FBI load in 3" barrel

CCantu357

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As a fan of the 158 grain LSWCHP, I know well it performs out of a 4" barrel revolver. On the other hand, I have also seen how it seems to lack expansion in the 2" barrel snub nose guns - no doubt due to loss in velocity. Any ideas on how well this load performs out of a 3" barrel gun? I am referring to the Winchester load and similar brands, not the hot loaded boutique brands.
 
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The FBI typically carried 3 inch Model 13 revolvers using the FBI load. From everything I've read or heard over the years 3 inches gave this load sufficient velocity to expand.
 
It will depend on several factors, but, generally with revolvers, muzzle velocity from a 3" barrel should be within about 35-50 feet per second of that obtained with a 4" barrel.
 
The FBI typically carried 3 inch Model 13 revolvers using the FBI load. From everything I've read or heard over the years 3 inches gave this load sufficient velocity to expand.


The 3" Model 13 was the FBI standard issue handgun at the time of the LSWCHP adoption..... they generally test the heck out of everything.... must be some write ups on line.................
 
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While the FBI load sometimes lacks expansion in gel when fired out of 2" snubs, it does have a good track record of stopping violent attacks. I would have no problem carrying FBI loads in my snub as I prefer field results over gel tests. I would not be concerned about its performance from a 3" barrel.

FWIW, when I had a 3" 65, I kept it loaded with Buffalo Bore's standard pressure FBI load (same velocity as the +P version from other makers). I never felt like I was inadequately armed. I've also carried it in a 2" 64 as well as my 2" 642, though I currently carry the Speer SB-GDHP.
 
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I read somewhere that ~850 fps muzzle velocity was the necessary minimum for expansion. That makes sense, but I have no way to verify.
 
A Texas cop who died a few years ago had a site where he wrote about gun and ammo tests. He fired Federal, Remington, and Winchester loads like you mean from both snubs and four-inch guns. He provided photos of expanded bullets from the usual test media. The Winchester performed well from four-inch, but expanded just slightly from snubs. It was still better than a full wadcutter bullet looks. The Federal was a little better from snubs, and the softer Remington lead bullet expanded quite well from both barrel lengths. Think expansion in excess of .50 caliber.

Assuming that you get a good hit in tough muscle tissue or on bone, I think you'll get good expansion from a three-inch barrel.

I've done considerable research over several decades on this and consulted engineers in the industry to whom ordinary shooters have no access. (I was a gun writer with a masthead listing at one magazine and valid writing credits at other titles.)

I got feedback never printed, except in my own articles. I was also, I believe, the first to explain in print the reason why hot 125 grain .357 loads were wrecking K-frame .357's.

Lee Jurras at Super Vel told me that my three-inch barreled M-36 should give about 85 FPS added velocity over a true snub. The Federal PR man then had engineers test their 129 grain JHP from both two and three-inch .38 revolvers, NOT pressure barrels. The figures were right around what Jurras said was true for his brand. This Fed. ammo was Hydra-Shok.

Finally, I got a detective whom I know (he is or was a member here) to check shooting results re 145 grain .357 Silvertip loads and the FBI .38 round.

These were actual autopsy results; not gelatin tests.

The cartridge is pretty effective.

The best results I got were from a Dallas officer working a bad part of town. He used his M-64 with four-inch barrel and that FBI load (also Dallas issue) to kill six felons, with no stopping power problems. I think the three-inch barrel will give almost as good results as the four-inch, especially with the softer Remington load, IF the Rem. is loaded to stated velocity.

I use the FBI/Dallas/Chicago/ Dade load in my .38's and use it in .357's that I think may be fired indoors, where Magnum blast and penetration are handicaps.

I also use Speer's Short Barrel load in two and three-inch barrels, but if I needed penetration plus reasonable expansion, that FBI load would be my choice in a lead HP .38 round.

When the RCMP went to 9 mm autos, the reason was to get magazine-fed guns that could be reloaded quicker than a revolver. They stated that they were satisfied with the stopping power of their lead Plus P HP ammo, which was loaded a bit hotter than typical US rounds of that type. I understand that they got about 1,000 FPS from the 158 grain lead loads in their five-inch Model 10's.

Massad Ayoob shot pigs in a slaughterhouse with both .380 autos and the snub .38, with the FBI load. The S&W .38 always penetrated the pigs' skulls and killed them. The .380 bullets sometimes glanced off and just caused suffering.

This information should convince you that you are on solid ground to use that old lead FBI load in a three-inch barrel.

The reason why the FBI went to the 147 grain JHP was that they needed better penetration in auto bodies. I don't know if the lead load was adequate against auto glass. Ask SIG P-220, who retired from the Bureau a year or two ago. PM him, or make an open post here for his attention.
 
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As an addendum to the above post, in 1974, I was writing gun columns for a major SW daily newspaper. I was asked by an editor to write a counterpoint article to one they planned to use by a vocal "community activist", who opposed Dallas police adopting HP ammo. He claimed it was not needed and was just being chosen to kill more of his, ah, "community."

I knew what to say to support HP ammo. I had studied handgun stopping power since I was 12 and had read voraciously for many years on the subject. The other man was just using emotion, based on lies, to state his case.

But I had to validate my claims by citing works by authorities whom the newspaper would accept. I couldn't just quote famous gun writers.

Among those whom I consulted was Dr. Vincent J.M. DiMaio, a famous wound ballistics scientist and a leading figure in his field. Dr. DiMaio told me that his studies had shown that a normal lead .38 bullet, 158 grain RN, deposited just 74 ft. lbs. of energy in an average human body! The Winchester lead SWC-HP tested deposited over 200 ft. lbs.!

You can see quite readily why the HP bullet was superior. I made other points, too, but that alone should give you an idea of just how much better that Winchester round was/is!

Alas, my article and the entire bullet controversy was quashed by the editor. I complained, saying that I was sure my story would effectively quell the controversy, answering my opponent's emotional, self-promoting drivel and attempt to drive a wedge between citizens and the police.

But the paper DIDN'T WANT the truth, to inform the public correctly. What they wanted was to generate a controversy to sell newspapers! I have never since trusted the mass media on guns or much else.
 
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Oh: I think I am alone in having hunted down someone at East Alton who could tell me what the letters MS meant on the ammo box.

It means Maximum Service. And that's about what it gives, in .38 Special terms. You'd need to go to the very hot true .38-44 round to get more.
 
Companies like Speer are making bullets the are designed to expand at low velocities.

Keep in mind that .455 MK III ammo expanded at combat ranges at just about 625 FPS. It did have a very large nose cavity. Lead bullet, of course, not JHP.
 
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