38 Special +P+ Again

[Vettepartz]

Awhile back I remember seeing a thread here on this ammo, but cannot find it now. Seems like someone said that this was only issued to Air Force personnel, but I could be wrong.

Anyway, I was going through my pile of ammo and found this. Due to my old age, I cannot remember where or when I got it. It looks as if a special sticker was put on as an end label, maybe by the factory. Just thought I would share

 

[desi2358]

Looks like a standard law enforcement package to me. There has been a demand for improved "stopping power" for years and various hollow point designs as well as the development of +P and later +P+ loads were intended to address this. Manufacturers have had some reservations about selling some of these loadings to the general public (liability for possible gun damage is one reason I've heard) but were more than willing to supply them (under contract) to various LE agencies.

Over the years much of this ammo was sold off (especially revolver loads as auto pistols became the standard) and got out to the public. Also some retailers who dealt with LE sales occasionally sold off some to the general market as well. The "Law Enforcement Only" tag was often seen as a sign that the ammo was "better" than standard commercial loads to many people.

I am not aware of Air Force or other military usage of such loads though they may have been used by MP's or some Special Investigation units acting as law enforcement for military posts.

 

[murphydog]

I’ve seen plenty of the Winchester 110 gr +P+ .38 Special (“Treasury”) loads but this type is a new one to me. Perhaps others have or used it in the past and can comment further.

 

[Old Corp]

That's one I'd like to have and try.....
I was given a BUNCH of .38 +P+ by a retired ATF guy who was moving and divesting himself of stuff he felt he had no need for. It's all Winchester 110 gr JHP.
Having shot some of it, doesn't seem to be anything uber-special. Just a basic +P .38 with a little added noise.

 

[GaryHK]

I’ve seen plenty of the Winchester 110 gr +P+ .38 Special (“Treasury”) loads but this type is a new one to me. Perhaps others have or used it in the past and can comment further.

The 147gr bullet is the same bullet they use(d) in the 9mm load, albeit with less powder in the 9.

I don't think federal still makes a +P+.38 HS load in a 147gr weight but they do in the 9.

 

[Herky Bird]

The USAF issued out 130gr .38 Special -P- ammunition, not allowed to have any fun. ;-)

 

[photoman]

I bought a bunch of this stuff in 50 round boxes about ten years ago from CTD. Still have two or three boxes of it. It's not particularly hot that I can tell.

 

[Muss Muggins]

That was our fed issue duty ammo when we carried S&W 66 2 1/2”’s before the Glock 23 transition around 2000. I got about a case of it floating around somewhere. It would rock that 66 back in your hands pretty good if you didn’t have hold of it . . .

 

[sigp220.45]

That was the FBI issue .38 Special round for a long time. 147 grain bullet at about 950 fps, so it was fairly stout. I used to qualify with it in my Model 36.

When the Bu nixed all revolvers around 2000, I wound up with a few cases of it. The PFI at the time said shoot it or give to the local cops, just don’t sell it. I gave some away, but the sea-change to .40 caliber was already well under way. I bought a Marlin 1894 and used it on Montana gophers until it was all gone. It would definitely stop a charging gopher.

 

[stansdds]

38 Special +P+ went passe some time ago. For a while, in the 70's and 80's, it was a 38 Special round that could reliably expand. Better bullet designs of today make +P+ pointless.

 

[ddixie884]

The story I heard on this 147gr Federal ammo was that it came out just over spec for +P. To get the performance required for the contract it was marked +P+ to indicate that it was over SAAMI for +P. AS stated earlier in the thread it was not considered overly hot. This is not the case with the "early" 110gr +P+ which was considered to be hard on guns. PGU-12/B was the Air Force round that was loaded to +P specs and can be identified by the bullet being deep seated and crimped over the ogive and a cannelure turned into the case at the base of the bullet.........

 

[Erich]

I just pulled some of that out the other day! It is not especially fast, but has been remarkably consistent in velocity - really minimal deviations. Neat round - not something I ever carry anymore (much better bullets out there now), but years ago I sure did.

 

[WR Moore]

Sometimes it pays to be an old fart. +P+ was the result of various groups who agitated that the use of .357 MAGNUM ammunition on criminals-excuse me, disadvantaged citizens engaged in income redistribution- was cruel and unusual punishment and other affronts to humanity and the constitution.

At the same time, the bullet designs of the time weren't entirely successful of reliable expansion at lower velocities. The general trend was to use pretty much the same bullet in standard pressure, +P and +P+ loadings.

What +P+ basically did was create .357 results in cases inoffensively head stamped as .38 Spl. The stuff was sold to government agencies that signed extensive hold harmless agreements which warned of excessive wear on firearms, possible firearm destruction and injuries and/or death to users in the case of said destruction.

There was some leakage to the NGO market, primarily of stuff that probably didn't meet all QC requirements-like velocity.

 

[Fastbolt]

Interesting. I was moving some older ammo around the other day and saw I still had a box of the Winchester 147gr +P (not +P+). I vaguely remember picking up some boxes of it back when the former head instructor told me it had done well in some state ammo tests toward the end of the 90's (I think it was?). I never got around to carrying it, and just packed it away.

I also saw I still had 3/4's of a box of the original Federal Nyclad 158gr LSWCHP +P, too. I used to carry it in my 649 and 36 when I couldn't find the Winchester 158gr +P version.

I must've been a pack rat for ammo in my 30's.

I still have a box of original all-lead Hydra-Shok .45ACP, in the original ammo wallet packaging.

 

[31FordA]

I used to have a bunch of the 110gr and 147gr +P+ ammo, probably still have a few boxes around here somewhere. It was good ammo, no problem killing bowling pins with it. The last time I shot any of it was when I got my 640ND. It has the “Tested for +P+” stamp, so I figured I should try it with +P+ ammo. Worked great.

At a recent gunshow I saw a few boxes of the 147gr +P+ for sale. A steal at $79.99 a box.

 

[Old Corp]

Sometimes it pays to be an old fart. +P+ was the result of various groups who agitated that the use of .357 MAGNUM ammunition on criminals-excuse me, disadvantaged citizens engaged in income redistribution- was cruel and unusual punishment and other affronts to humanity and the constitution.

At the same time, the bullet designs of the time weren't entirely successful of reliable expansion at lower velocities. The general trend was to use pretty much the same bullet in standard pressure, +P and +P+ loadings.

What +P+ basically did was create .357 results in cases inoffensively head stamped as .38 Spl. The stuff was sold to government agencies that signed extensive hold harmless agreements which warned of excessive wear on firearms, possible firearm destruction and injuries and/or death to users in the case of said destruction.

There was some leakage to the NGO market, primarily of stuff that probably didn't meet all QC requirements-like velocity.

Precisely the reason my agency issued .357 revolvers, first for me was a Colt Trooper MKIII, and very soon thereafter went to all M66's. BUT - duty ammo was (and this dates me) S&W-brand .38 Spl. 110 and later 125 gr JHP +P. Once S&W ammo went away, it was replaced by the same-spec Federal.

At the time there was much ado in the media about police use of "MAGNUMS" and the wisdom of using something on poor suspects that could take out an engine block at 7 blocks away.

We even had training staff that decided that if an officer lost his weapon in a struggle, it'd be better to get shot with this .38 round than a .357, body armor or not. (Using this line of reasoning, give me a .25 ACP every time)
Oh, and the 'female officer' consideration regarding qualifying was brought up.

Real reason came down to a term not known/used back then - 'P.C.'.

 

[stansdds]

...criminals-excuse me, disadvantaged citizens engaged in income redistribution...

LOL! I might be stealing... re-appropriating that description.

 

[chief38]

I have two different boxes, one made by Winchester and one by Federal. One is 95 grains and the other is 110 grains and neither one has ever impressed me half as much as Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWC-HP or Speer +P 135 Gr. GDHP. I guess for it's day back in the 1970's it was something that let Fed's use a 38 special load instead of the "dreaded" Magnum loads their M66 Revolvers were originally meant to carry. Apparently the Media was all up in arms about the Magnums.

In reality, more of a curio and collectible than useful as a really good SD round IMHO.

 

[tom2]

I still have 45 of 50 in a box of the Winchester. Tried it in a snub nose K frame and did not like it at all. Five and done. Might behave better in the long barrel N frame, maybe some day.

 

[chief38]

In general I have never been a fan of lightweight for the caliber bullets.