38 Special +P

[Sam Casey]

Some recent threads refer to +P loads. Question - can you shoot +P in any modern Smith such as a 642 Airweight? In reloading once fired +P cases they seem to a bit more substantial than regular brass. Bullets seem harder to seat. Lite loads of 231 with Dardas WC. Lastly, when looking at Load Data.com it is not real clear when you are in +P territory. My sense maybe 900 FPS with 125gr XTP?

 

[arjay]

You can shoot +p in anything post WWII

 

[venomballistics]

Some recent threads refer to +P loads. Question - can you shoot +P in any modern Smith such as a 642 Airweight? In reloading once fired +P cases they seem to a bit more substantial than regular brass. Bullets seem harder to seat. Lite loads of 231 with Dardas WC. Lastly, when looking at Load Data.com it is not real clear when you are in +P territory. My sense maybe 900 FPS with 125gr XTP?

+P designation has little to do with velocity and everything to do with pressure.
one powder might drive a 158 grain bullet to 960 FPS without entering into +P while another powder will blow your gun struggling to generate 875 FPS ...
Pressure, pressure, pressure.

 

[andyo5]

You can shoot +P in anything marked 38 Special +P.

 

[NC Bob]

.38 Special pressure tops out at 17,000 psi- .38 Special +P at 20,000 psi according to my Speer manual.

Starline says the only difference in THEIR +P brass is the headstamp for load segregation.

If your revolver isn't a .357 OR marked .38 +P, you may want to ask the gun manufacturer.

 

[DWalt]

In general, you can use +P loads in about any S&W .38 Special from the 1920s until today, and your gun won't blow up in your hand. The real question is why do it?

 

[Sam Casey]

Agreed. Have been passing the winter loading variety of 125 HP 38 Spl loads with a view finding a reasonably accurate all purpose target, hunt and defense load with modest recoil and some bullet expansion. Trying to stay below +P; my outer limit for test loads.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Most weapons from the 1990's on have markings to advise if the weapon can fire +p ammo.

The newer all steel and "Airweight" come with a magnum frame or a +P stamp on them..... and are ok for the +P ammo.

I have a 1982 J frame steel that does not have markings that does not list for the use of +p ammo .......... even though the +P load came out in the early 1970's.

Some weapons may have been heat treated or not...........one reason many do not want to shoot +p ammo in their weapons, due to lake of information.

 

[alwslate]

Ask a question about 38 spl +P on here and you get a variety of
opinions most of which are inconsistant with factory ratings. S&W has
a table of their various models along with the ammo they rate that
model for. In general it's steel K or larger frame revolvers mfg after
1957 for +P. Some later air weight J frames are rated for +P like the
642 and are usually marked as such. The mod 60-4 and 60-7 are
rated for +P but are not marked as such. The table is in the owner's
manual of many of their revolvers but I suppose most owners don't
feel the need to read their manuals. To answer your question about
velocity my chronographing of factory ammo and handloads agrees
with your opinon. About 900 fps out of a J frame with 125 gr JHPs is
about factory +P level and handloads with an appropriate powder.

 

[moxie]

From the S&W owners manual:

"Plus-P" (+P) ammunition generates pressures in excess of the pressures associated with standard ammunition. Such pressures may affect the wear characteristics or exceed the margin of safety built into some revolvers and could therefore be DANGEROUS. This ammunition should not be used in Smith & Wesson medium (K frame) revolvers manufactured prior to 1958. Such pre-1958 medium (K-frame) revolvers can be identified by the absence of a model number stamped inside the yoke cut of the frame (i.e., the area of the frame exposed when the cylinder is in the open position).
"Plus-P-Plus (+P+) ammunition must not be used in Smith & Wesson firearms. This marking on the ammunition designates that it exceeds established industry standards, but the designation does not represent defined pressure limits and therefore such ammunition may vary significantly as to the pressures generated.

 

[Forrest r]

Hate to say it but. It's hard not to like a plain old wc load in a 38spl snub nosed revolver.

Mild recoil, easy on powder, hit hard, excellent penetration.

 

[Nevada Ed]

The 642 has the same barrel length as my M49 but the powder
used in reloading plays a large part on if you can reach +P speeds.

In my test, Bullsey's top load only produced 820fps with a Win. 125gr SJHP. W231 did a little better at 840fps with a wsp. CFE reached 882fps with a cci primer and Universal did 889fps.

Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique all were able to get to 900fps with a cci primer but the Unique backed down to 880fps was the most accurate.

Red Dot at 4.6 grs produced a fac dup load for me at around 840fps out of the snub nose and a 6" should post 945fps.

 

[Mal Cap]

I have a J-Frame Titanium Airlite Ti. Frame is aluminum, cylinder is Titanium, pins are Titanium. barrel is steel of course. It's +P capable and only weighs 11.4 oz. Recoil is a killer obviously. The gun has apparently been replaced with the PD model and some Scandium models. If you have the manual for the handgun it should indicate if you can use +Ps. My 9 Shield manual says "yes" BUT is warns shooting them may require additional servicing for the gun. I don't use them but will carry defensive loads instead. A J-Frame revolver should be more sturdy but A better idea is to call Smith and they check for you and possibly discuss the fps issue for reloads.

 

[jd45]

.38 Specil+P

Sam, since I haven't noticed anyone else respond to one of the points you raised, I'll take a crack at it. You said with +P cases bullets are harder to seat. Well, they shouldn't be IF you put the proper amount of belling on the case mouth. Lead naturally needs slightly more than copper jacketed to prevent shaving, but keep it minimal in any case to prevent splitting the mouth & make it easier to run the cartridge up into the seating/crimping die. I also put just a little chamfering inside the mouth, too. Good luck, jd45

 

[Vortec MAX]

In my test, Bullsey's top load only produced 820fps with a Win. 125gr SJHP. W231 did a little better at 840fps with a wsp. CFE reached 882fps with a cci primer and Universal did 889fps.

Red Dot, Green Dot and Unique all were able to get to 900fps with a cci primer but the Unique backed down to 880fps was the most accurate.

Red Dot at 4.6 grs produced a fac dup load for me at around 840fps out of the snub nose and a 6" should post 945fps.

You are getting more velocity out of some of these powders than I was able to obtain. You are testing out of a 1.875" snubnose... right?

With 125 GR bullets and CCI primers from a Model 438, the best I got out of these powders was:

Unique (6.2 gr) 790 FPS
Bullseye (5.3 gr) 832 FPS <- this one is about what you got
CFE Pistol (6.4 gr) 760 FPS
Win 231 (5.7 gr) 784 FPS
Universal (5.9 gr) 786 FPS

I also tested a couple of powders that you did not list. Same bullet and primer. The results were:

AutoComp (6.4 gr) 774 FPS
TiteGroup (5.0 gr) 775 FPS
Power Pistol (7.1 gr) 880 FPS

All of these loads were the MAX +P loading from various manufacturers data or reloading manuals. Power Pistol was my standout.

Mike

 

[Goblin]

As stated above about Starline brass, even for other brands the only difference should be the head stamp. Any real variance in brass thickness should only be between brands.

 

[NC Bob]

Sam, since I haven't noticed anyone else respond to one of the points you raised, I'll take a crack at it. You said with +P cases bullets are harder to seat. Well, they shouldn't be IF you put the proper amount of belling on the case mouth. Lead naturally needs slightly more than copper jacketed to prevent shaving, but keep it minimal in any case to prevent splitting the mouth & make it easier to run the cartridge up into the seating/crimping die. I also put just a little chamfering inside the mouth, too. Good luck, jd45

Check my post (# 5) concerning Starlines .38 +P brass. Here is a quote from their site-

38 SPL+P has no difference from the standard 38 SPL, other than headstamp designation for load segregation. This is due to the fact that our standard case design will handle +P pressures with no problems.

 

[Houlton]

I fired a cylinder of old Super Vel 38 +P in my Airweight. would not recommend it. No pressure signs but as my son said when he did the same thing" Brutal".

 

[bluetopper]

When did the "+P" designation start? Prior 38 Special loading data was to current +P specs, wasn't it?

 

[alwslate]

I loaded a few 125 gr Sierra JHPs to about the same velocity as factory
+Ps and chronographed them out of my mod 60-7 1 7/8". Unique
didn't work out at all, wide velocity variations and low velocities with
recommended loads. Bullseye worked fine with low extreme spreads.
I didn't experiment with all the powders that I have and my best
results came with W231. 6.0 grs chronographed right at 900 fps,
slightly exceeding Remington and Speer factory +P 125s and was more
consistant with low ESs.