slickracer
Member
Those are awfully light charges to accurately drop with Clays.
38 special schofield freak accident
- Thread starter lougotzzz
- Start date
youngolddude
Member
Squibs are caused by insufficient powder, contaminated powder or weak primers IMO. Your charge weight needs to be sufficient for your bullet so check your reloading manual(s). Your press dumps powder mechanically and if the case doesn't cause the measure to retract all the way, your charge can be low. If you have clumps of powder in the hopper, they can cause the bar to not fill properly. Some people use a vibrating device on the hopper to aid filling the bar. Shoot your gun after clearing the barrel and it will tell you if it is no longer accurate. You can buy a used Schofield for $700-800, so a new barrel doesn't make sense to me. Good luck.
I'd be shocked if one of the mods didn't ding you for your arrogant and disrespectful comments, so considerate it done by me and those just thinking it. If they want to give me a demerit that's okay by me. The only bulge I see here is in your massive ego.
Model 15-4ever
Member
1. An example of why bunny fart loads are generally a bad idea, and especially with anything other than a very-light-for-calibre plain lead bullet or round ball.
Pressure is not some evil thing to be held to a minimum; it is what is required to propel the bullet, within the confines of the design specification for the particular cartridge. Cartridges are generally designed to work optimally at fairly close to their maximum working pressure. Over-cautious data in modern loading manuals - and their lawyers - publish "start loads" that are often so low pressure that even small normal variations in hand-loading can produce bad results at these ridiculously low levels. The opposite end of concern about "blowing yourself up" with an overpressure load, is making a load that is so low pressure that it is erratic and dangerous.
2. Blaming this on Win 231/HP38 is a skewed conclusion in my view. I and many many other reloaders been using both of these for a long time in many moderate pressure cartridges from .32 S&W Long through .45 Auto, and including a great deal of .38 Special. Ballistic uniformity is excellent. Legions of handloaders have also used this propellant for many years in both normal pressure and +P .38 Special loads with excellent results in terms of velocity and accuracy. Many of these loads are "target loads" of moderate pressure and Win 231/HP-38 has never had a reputation of inconsistency at moderate levels, regardless of powder position of the relatively small charges in the .38 Special case.
Better to blame wacked-out data from Hodgdon, which is why it's good to consults several sources. Hodgdon lists a start load for .38 Special with Win 231/HP-38 and 158 grain lead bullet at a pathetic 3.1 grains (which they appear to have derived many years ago from a tight-spec 7" test barrel fixture and have never updated). This is far below what nearly every other manual - Hornady, Speer, Lee - suggests (3.6-4.0 grains) I would be surprised if that 3.1 grain load achieved much over 500 fps in a 2" barrel, or even reached 10,000 psi.
Yet, the standard moderate pressure "target load" for many years with that combination has been 4.0 grains. I use it to this day with late production Win 231 and it is a mild load, likely at approxmately 14,000 psi in a cartridge that has a maximum working pressure of 17,000-20,000 psi. Going much lower than that is asking for trouble, including bloopers, inconsistent ignition, stuck bullets in the bore and erratic accuracy.
3. Consider that your container of Win 231 is contaminated or there is some other anomaly.
Staying within a band not below 80% of maximum pressure in a handgun cartridge avoids many problems.
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Model19man
Member
The guy said in his first post that he was using Clays powder not W231 or HP38. He is going to try a load using W231. I think you need to re - read his post and then craft a new answer.
I really appreciate this answer. You did mix up the powders. I was using clays. I have and will be using 231 next. Was trying to use up my last amount of clays.
Outside of that I will say that your response was spot on. I have always worried about the inconsistencies of the reloading manuals and going to close to max. I really believe this to be a major part of why I got this squib.
I got 4 squibs total in 17 years of reloading. One was maybe 10 years ago ( I was looking out for it) The other 3 are with this load,this bullet model 14 SW. 2 of them I caught because I felt the difference in recoil so I popped them out. One was primer driven or extreamly low charge. The one that caused trouble was with the schofield. that gun is so heavy I could not feel any difference in recoil.
I got the barrel back from John Taylor. He did a great job but he said the barrel is buldged slightly. I will try it to see if I have any kind of accuracy. I am still on the list for a barrel replacement from Taylor's an co.
Thanks
max503
Member
Even though I've never had a problem with my Dillion SDB this thread makes me not want to use Unique in it ever again because I've seen Unique bridge in a powder funnel while charging cases with a dipper.
max503
Member
I am curious. Why would a plated bullet cause a squib?
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They're theorizing that the plating increases friction in the barrel requiring more powder. My experience is that given a similar powder charge, the plating appears to have a bit less friction, but that's not with mouse fart loads. However, "appear" isn't necessarily fact.
The recommendations for plated bullets generally mention using lead bullet data, Berry's website currently suggests using lead, plated or jacketed load data with velocities not to exceed Berry's limits (1250 f/s for standard plating). Data for jacketed bullets have always required a heavier powder charge than lead due to greater bore friction. IIRC, back decades ago when plated bullets became widely available, the suggestion was to start with middle of the data loads and work up. NOT bottom of the data.
The recommendations for plated bullets generally mention using lead bullet data, Berry's website currently suggests using lead, plated or jacketed load data with velocities not to exceed Berry's limits (1250 f/s for standard plating). Data for jacketed bullets have always required a heavier powder charge than lead due to greater bore friction. IIRC, back decades ago when plated bullets became widely available, the suggestion was to start with middle of the data loads and work up. NOT bottom of the data.
ggibson511960
Member
I'll share my powder measuring mishap. I went on a reloading binge to use up components for my various CF rifle calibers, 270 WCF, 300 Savage, 8 mm Mauser and 300 H&H. My usual practice has been to short charge out of a Uniflow measure onto a balance scale pan, then trickle up to the desired charge. Loading hundreds of rounds I decided to shortcut and load slightly reduced charges directly from the Uniflow. I was checking the dropped charge by inspecting a block of loaded cases without bullets. I noticed big variations in level. Warning! My ancient Uniflo was throwing wild deviations in charge weight. The only flaw I could find was in the drop tube below the drum. I was accumulating crud in the smooth pockets in the baked enamel finish. I didn't think that a simple powder measure could bridge powder, but it can. I was dropping IMR 3031, which meters just O.K. with a lot of crunching and cutting when the drum charge hole crosses the cutting edge. The Uniflow is retired and a Chargemaster now toils away, electronically metering and weighing every charge. Yes, it's slow, but almost as fast as metering if in the automatic mode.
.38SuperMan
Member
I didn't bother to read your entire post because you know nothing of my situation or history.
I've been loading using 231, thinking back, since the early 90 and loaded tens of thousands of 38's and 45 acp with this powder. Ok now time has moved forward and I'm now 76 with significant arthritis in my hands and wrists. If I'm going to continue shooting I have to shoot mild low recoil loads or I'm in pain for several days. And I want to avoid additional wear on my joints. You may not understand this problem but it's very painful and I have to adjust my life to deal with it.
My example of what happened to me was just sharing my experience should he try 231.
Not sure what to put here
Hey Lougotzzz! I don't think this is your reloading skills.
I Bought a .38 Cimarron/Uberti Schofield with the 7 inch barrel In September 2024. I had exactly the same experience you are having, but with factory ammo. I fired a handful of rounds, everything seemed fine, no difference in sound, only the lack of recoil. I had sent the target out far so I couldn't see the lack of shots on paper. Me, and the RSO I let try the gun filled that barrel all the way to the cylinder. One more shot and I might have gone to the hospital.
Long story short, the ammo company paid for the destroyed gun. So what did I do? I bought another Schofield because I've always wanted one. My replacement comes to the shop, I sign for it, walk it into the range for a test with different ammo, and on my third shot the bullet gets stuck just at tip of the barrel. Cimarron even approved the shop's gunsmith to clear the squib and perform a test firing of the gun where another squib happened on the 33rd shot.
Now I'm getting the run around from Cimarron and their gunsmith months later. Where it sounds to me like Uberti needs to put out a recall before someone gets hurt.
P.s. this is two Cimarron schofield revolvers with the 7 inch barrel. Chambered for 38 special. And two different brands of factory 158gr Ammunition. Neither gun Left the shop in safe working order.
Hey Lougotzzz! I don't think this is your reloading skills.
I Bought a .38 Cimarron/Uberti Schofield with the 7 inch barrel In September 2024. I had exactly the same experience you are having, but with factory ammo. I fired a handful of rounds, everything seemed fine, no difference in sound, only the lack of recoil. I had sent the target out far so I couldn't see the lack of shots on paper. Me, and the RSO I let try the gun filled that barrel all the way to the cylinder. One more shot and I might have gone to the hospital.
Long story short, the ammo company paid for the destroyed gun. So what did I do? I bought another Schofield because I've always wanted one. My replacement comes to the shop, I sign for it, walk it into the range for a test with different ammo, and on my third shot the bullet gets stuck just at tip of the barrel. Cimarron even approved the shop's gunsmith to clear the squib and perform a test firing of the gun where another squib happened on the 33rd shot.
Now I'm getting the run around from Cimarron and their gunsmith months later. Where it sounds to me like Uberti needs to put out a recall before someone gets hurt.
P.s. this is two Cimarron schofield revolvers with the 7 inch barrel. Chambered for 38 special. And two different brands of factory 158gr Ammunition. Neither gun Left the shop in safe working order.
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Reed pipes
Thank you. I check every charge. I know I could have made a mistake but I think there is something wacky with this. Maybe not 100% guns fault but I dont think 100% mine. Cimmeron and Taylor said they had this issue before. Not extreamly common but it has happened. I might just keep this gun as a show piece and not shoot it. I have a sour taste in my mouth with it.
Thank you. I check every charge. I know I could have made a mistake but I think there is something wacky with this. Maybe not 100% guns fault but I dont think 100% mine. Cimmeron and Taylor said they had this issue before. Not extreamly common but it has happened. I might just keep this gun as a show piece and not shoot it. I have a sour taste in my mouth with it.
ggibson511960
Member
February 2025 issue of Handloader magazine has n article entitled "A Tale of Two Kabooms" recounting how an 84 yr old gentleman with early dementia blew up a 1872 Colt (1860 cartridge conversion) and a Schofield in rapid succession, chambered in .44 Spcl and .45 Colt, respectively, and both inadvertently loaded with multiple charges of Bullseye. Pictures are scary. Nobody got seriously hurt. Shooter suffered a broken toe from a Schofield shrapnel bit. He's now retired from hand loading, unable to explain how he double or triple charged his loads. A friend examined his remaining stock and found a few IED's.
It could happen to any of us. My inviolable rule is to never rapid fire hand loads in a revolver. My S&W's and Colts could likely withstand a double bunny fart load but not a barrel obstruction.
It could happen to any of us. My inviolable rule is to never rapid fire hand loads in a revolver. My S&W's and Colts could likely withstand a double bunny fart load but not a barrel obstruction.
A quick update on the schofield.
The 6 projectiles were removed by the gunsmith. I took the gun out today to test it and see if I need to get the barrel changed because of the two bulges in the barrel. The gunsmith said the muzzle was fine. Accuracy might suffer from the bulge.
I shot 225 rounds out of in. All factory ammo.
At 150 rounds I needed to take the cylinder off the gun and clean it because it started to bind. The cylinder gap is very tight on this gun.
Speer lawmen
Fiocci
Winchester white box
All around 130 grain FMJ Speer was TMJ. The Speer lawmen were the most accurate and the hottest of the three. Winchester was the lightest. I can feel a major difference between the factory 130 gr and my reloaded 158 gr. Mine were lighter. I took my sw model 14 out too and I could see the schofield dampened recoil much more then the model 14. After about 75-100 rounds a pin was walking out on me. It holds the mechanism that activates the extractor when opening the gun.
The sights are crude but once I got the hang of them accuracy was fine. This gun needs a more potent load then what I was feeding it. I think that was a major part of my issue. I think the 130 gr is better for it as well. I will keep the 158 for my 357.
All in all the gun is a nice gun for what it is. I will keep it as is. Thanks for all your help who participated in this thread.
Lou
The 6 projectiles were removed by the gunsmith. I took the gun out today to test it and see if I need to get the barrel changed because of the two bulges in the barrel. The gunsmith said the muzzle was fine. Accuracy might suffer from the bulge.
I shot 225 rounds out of in. All factory ammo.
At 150 rounds I needed to take the cylinder off the gun and clean it because it started to bind. The cylinder gap is very tight on this gun.
Speer lawmen
Fiocci
Winchester white box
All around 130 grain FMJ Speer was TMJ. The Speer lawmen were the most accurate and the hottest of the three. Winchester was the lightest. I can feel a major difference between the factory 130 gr and my reloaded 158 gr. Mine were lighter. I took my sw model 14 out too and I could see the schofield dampened recoil much more then the model 14. After about 75-100 rounds a pin was walking out on me. It holds the mechanism that activates the extractor when opening the gun.
The sights are crude but once I got the hang of them accuracy was fine. This gun needs a more potent load then what I was feeding it. I think that was a major part of my issue. I think the 130 gr is better for it as well. I will keep the 158 for my 357.
All in all the gun is a nice gun for what it is. I will keep it as is. Thanks for all your help who participated in this thread.
Lou
Back in 80s had a flurry of 38/357s with bulged barrels due to light loads
with half jacket bullet. Trouble with these loads was the bullet was throwing the core, providing target strike. Jacket is left in bore to catch the next shot
All 38/357s except one 45acp 1911. Hard to put finger on it because owners never want to own up. Many try to get the most bang out of lb. of powder, only reason for it.
with half jacket bullet. Trouble with these loads was the bullet was throwing the core, providing target strike. Jacket is left in bore to catch the next shot
All 38/357s except one 45acp 1911. Hard to put finger on it because owners never want to own up. Many try to get the most bang out of lb. of powder, only reason for it.
308 Scout
Member
I'm glad Mr. Taylor was able to save your barrel. He lined an ancient 1873 Winchester barrel for me and did an outstanding job. He's a prince of a guy. I'm also glad your revolver is shooting accurately for you. That must be quite a relief!
I'd like to go back to the posts referring to the "bore" of the Schofield as "tight".
First of all, what we should be concerned with most is the groove diameter of the barrel, not the diameter of the bore.
Second, here is a link to the bore and groove diameters of Uberti's barrels. As can be seen, the bore and groove diameters of their .38 Specials and .357 Magnum's barrels are .346" and .355", respectively, which is exactly the same as the standards set forth by SAAMI for the same cartridges(scroll down to page 39). So, the barrel dimensions of your Schofield should be within spec. Maybe there's a tight spot or restriction, who knows? That would not be at all uncommon as some Ruger revolvers are quite notorious for having tight spots in their barrels where they screw in the frame.
I was browsing some .38 Special data in my Load Data | The Best Reloading Manual Online account and ran across a .38 Special load from Handloader Magazine #269 consisting of 3.0 gr. of Clays and a 158 gr. plated bullet. Fired from a Colt Officer's Match, MV averaged 660 fps. They don't state the barrel length, but that velocity is too low for my comfort.
Because I have so much Clays, I load 3.0 gr. in my .38 Special's but I use cast bullets exclusively, either 150 or 158 gr., both of which run around 750 fps out of my Model 10's. I personally don't see the use of using jacketed or plated bullets for such light loads.
Regarding your revolver, it's built to withstand chamber pressures as per C.I.P., which is the European equivalent of SAAMI. C.I.P. maximum average pressure (MAP)for the .38 Special is 1500 bar which is almost 22,000 psi (FYI, C.I.P. doesn't have a .38 Special +P pressure standard). For reference, SAAMI pressure standards for the .38 Special +P is 20,000 psi. Given that your revolver would've been proofed at 1.3x C.I.P.'s MAP (~28,000 psi), any normal .38 Special load would be perfectly safe in it.
I'd like to go back to the posts referring to the "bore" of the Schofield as "tight".
First of all, what we should be concerned with most is the groove diameter of the barrel, not the diameter of the bore.
Second, here is a link to the bore and groove diameters of Uberti's barrels. As can be seen, the bore and groove diameters of their .38 Specials and .357 Magnum's barrels are .346" and .355", respectively, which is exactly the same as the standards set forth by SAAMI for the same cartridges(scroll down to page 39). So, the barrel dimensions of your Schofield should be within spec. Maybe there's a tight spot or restriction, who knows? That would not be at all uncommon as some Ruger revolvers are quite notorious for having tight spots in their barrels where they screw in the frame.
I was browsing some .38 Special data in my Load Data | The Best Reloading Manual Online account and ran across a .38 Special load from Handloader Magazine #269 consisting of 3.0 gr. of Clays and a 158 gr. plated bullet. Fired from a Colt Officer's Match, MV averaged 660 fps. They don't state the barrel length, but that velocity is too low for my comfort.
Because I have so much Clays, I load 3.0 gr. in my .38 Special's but I use cast bullets exclusively, either 150 or 158 gr., both of which run around 750 fps out of my Model 10's. I personally don't see the use of using jacketed or plated bullets for such light loads.
Regarding your revolver, it's built to withstand chamber pressures as per C.I.P., which is the European equivalent of SAAMI. C.I.P. maximum average pressure (MAP)for the .38 Special is 1500 bar which is almost 22,000 psi (FYI, C.I.P. doesn't have a .38 Special +P pressure standard). For reference, SAAMI pressure standards for the .38 Special +P is 20,000 psi. Given that your revolver would've been proofed at 1.3x C.I.P.'s MAP (~28,000 psi), any normal .38 Special load would be perfectly safe in it.
Glowe
In my case I reloaded twice. The gun was new to me and an old gun. The sights were very crude. I honestly thought that I wasn't holding the gun properly with the proper sight picture. The gun is very heavy the loads were light I saw no difference. Freak things happen. Sometimes the brain does not tell you to do the most rational thing when you are in a situation.
In my case I reloaded twice. The gun was new to me and an old gun. The sights were very crude. I honestly thought that I wasn't holding the gun properly with the proper sight picture. The gun is very heavy the loads were light I saw no difference. Freak things happen. Sometimes the brain does not tell you to do the most rational thing when you are in a situation.
I pulled the rest of the bullets from the hundred round batch. What I figured out was I was using the last of my pound of clays and I did not have anymore to top off the hopper. As I was getting to the bottom of the hopper the press started to throw erratic powder charges. After weighing each charge I found charges at 2.5 and 2.7. My original load was 2.9-3.0 max in the book was 3.1
I guess mystery solved.
I pulled 88 rounds.
I guess mystery solved.
I pulled 88 rounds.
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Squibs happen a lot on the trap range with hand loaded ammo. When something doesn't sound right shooters on the line will stop you if you don't hear it or know what to listen for. It's happened to me when I loaded my own ammo. Nobody is perfect and neither are components. Both sometimes fail. I had a squib with a 9mm round I loaded. Fortunately I realized it in time. Not sure what caused it but it was probably my fault.
Now you know what a squib is. Watch and listen for those.
Now you know what a squib is. Watch and listen for those.
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Post 83 brought back memories of the skeet range long ago. There were a few folks who'd go to the stations with a dowel rod stuck in the back of their belts. Think that was when plastic shells were the latest thing and folks were just figuring out how to load them correctly.
Bloop!
Bloop!
Dan W. Cady
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I once saw a Model 19 six inch Barrel that had six 148Gr wadcutters stuck in the barrel. Light loads, too light and fast double action shooting. With bullets removed five nicely spaced rings appeared. The Smith still shot accurately.
Extremely light loads are best made with lead.
A friend switched to plated using his favorite Trail Boss load and stuck a plated bullet in his Model 15. Wisely, he stopped at one.
A friend switched to plated using his favorite Trail Boss load and stuck a plated bullet in his Model 15. Wisely, he stopped at one.
USBP SW
Member
I don't know if this has been addressed in any of the previous posts but I use a Dillon 550, I take every tenth case out and check the powder charge for accuracy. You indicated that the bore diameter was extremely tight, lands or grooves? Additionally, I would recommend lead bullets for target loads, I have only used jacketed projectiles with the appropriate type of powder/loading and I have used jacketed bullets very rarely.
I've posted on my experience with plated bullets and 231/38 powder.
Just The highlights:
Plated bullets need to be loaded to least midrange jacketed data to get lead bullet velocity.
231-38 gave wild variations in velocity across several different caliber tests. 200 fps wasn't uncommon.
Similar loads targeting the same velocity using AA2 or Titegroup produced significantly less velocity variation.
Tests were done by several different press & powder dispensing methods and weight checks. Same results.
Not entirely sure what to make of the W231-HP38 results. Had long time been a favorite. But recently and using different canisters, the results have been erratic.
Just The highlights:
Plated bullets need to be loaded to least midrange jacketed data to get lead bullet velocity.
231-38 gave wild variations in velocity across several different caliber tests. 200 fps wasn't uncommon.
Similar loads targeting the same velocity using AA2 or Titegroup produced significantly less velocity variation.
Tests were done by several different press & powder dispensing methods and weight checks. Same results.
Not entirely sure what to make of the W231-HP38 results. Had long time been a favorite. But recently and using different canisters, the results have been erratic.
This is why I have never trusted progressive reloaders. My single-stage RCBS Rock Chucker from 1981 is all I have ever used.
Just take to a gunsmith.......Have him remove the barrel and press the bullets out after oil soak...........OR....You could do it yourself.
